State of PoxNora 2017

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Sokolov, Mar 29, 2017.

  1. Poxpoints

    Poxpoints I need me some PIE!

    I have not been playing for a while, but one of the things I would love to see is a competitive game mode mostly catering to new or returning players.

    I would love to see a Core Set only ranked ladder, in addition to the current ladder.

    Positives:
    - Core set should be easy to balance internally without having to much of an effect on the balance of the none core set runes.
    - Provides a less overwhelming but still competitive mode (step up to actual ranked).
    - Returning players can instantly jump in with their old decks (no need to spend time BG-building the first time you open Pox again).
    - A standard BG for each faction can be made without developers having to worry about it going out of date.
    - Incentive to get Core Set runes.

    Negative:
    - Could split the playerbase.
    - Could provide challenging to balance the first time around.

    With maps I feel there are two ways to go:
    - Small maps only: this makes for faster games, people might log for a quick game (new players and veterans alike).
    - Rotation system: this keeps this game mode a bit fresh.

    Personally I think I prefer the small maps, as it would be easier to balance and I really see this mode as a step up to the actual current ranked mode.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2017
  2. aseryen

    aseryen I need me some PIE!

    You should feel at home with the PS4 launch. Although idt top100 is going to be evenly split with PS4/PC players

    But again, I don't like the ranked circle jerk, especially when the orgy room never gets cleaned out, the wall paper is starting to peel...
     
  3. NevrGonaGivUup

    NevrGonaGivUup I need me some PIE!

    What do you even mean by this? That everyone is copying each other's decks?
     
    Etherielin likes this.
  4. xaznsoulx

    xaznsoulx Supreme Dream Team 夢想 隊

    Overall Pox is an incredibly unique game and I don't ever see it dying. I think one of the common traits in successful video games would have to be the communal aspect. In essence, it's competition that motivates people to come back and grind. I've noticed that over the years, the majority of the same top players land somewhere in the top 30 give or take. Although Solo q is a major benefactor in keeping this game going, I feel like we've underestimated the necessity of guild rankings. Guilds put another sense of motivation to put in hours. Back in the day it was Mercs and NaG. Not only do you have to worry about your own rank, you have to build up your team to reach the top. I remember the countless hours I put into Clash of Clans and the wars we had with the top clans. There was more reason to play for your team members to achieve a common goal. That is why I'm proposing a similar concept and I'm going to tag @MikeLin here because he had some interesting input.
     
  5. Xiven

    Xiven I need me some PIE!

    I'm pretty sure, at this point, that the only thing that will kill this game, is the death of the majority of its players.
    PoxNora is positively unique, in many ways, and something about it is eternally enthralling; the grind is fun, and unlike other games that are grind-heavy, everything you have ground out is still important, as old Runes are still seeing creative use in modern gameplay. The constant updates make the game feel alive, and adding more and more expansions—whensoever they may come—expands everything about the gameplay.
    This is also why the new-player experience is the most important; I've read a lot of complaints on Steam, for example, of people playing for five minutes and quitting, forever. They never see that, while the game isn't updated as frequently or as obviously as most modern games of other genres, there's still a lot going on. Many of them blame the game for being too complex, but that's really just a perception fault, on their part, no doubt influenced by brain-dead, modern games.
    It may help the new client release for as many people as feel comfortable to just... make some gameplay videos for Youtube. There's been a dearth of visual content for the game on social media, and it's buried deep, on Steam. It certainly wouldn't hurt, either, to make the community feel a little more... alive. I'm not proposing an aggressive, guerilla marketing conspiracy or anything, just that we help the game really feel like something revivified, not resurrected, you know?
     
    Etherielin and Hierokliff like this.
  6. newsbuff

    newsbuff Forum Royalty

    pox deserve far more players and attention than it is getting. The question is why does the game languish in obscurity?

    Pox 2 is something that will launch the game to its rightful place and attract more players. The current size of the playerbase is pathetic - and restrictive to experimenting with new game modes or queues. You devs deserve to be rich and famous as well and its a crime that you're not.
     
  7. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Keep in mind that one of the original founders now lives in Hawaii and that SOE diverted the studio's profits into Facebook games for almost 2 years.
     
  8. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    god that pissed me off....they invited a bunch of us to be part of some sony club as reps for pox...but all we did during my tenure their was test face book games for them and be thouroughly ignored when ever we asked anything about pox.

    we did get to test dc online alpha though....so....that was a thing i guess
     
  9. Poxpoints

    Poxpoints I need me some PIE!

    While I understand what you're saying, I feel in PoxNora's case it might be a vicious circle:

    1) New player joins game.
    2) New player tries the game.
    3) New player gets overwhelmed (among other NUX issues)
    4) New player stops
    5) Player base hasn't grown
    6) Can't implement additional ladder -> argument: player base is too small

    In my personal opinion to break out of this circle we should start making the game easier to get into for new players.
    I believe my idea does succeed in doing that.

    What I believe will happen if this additional ladder would be implemented:
    - Right after implementation (implementation should go together with influx of new players, e.g.: with PS4 release): playerbase will be split, with a lot of people trying the new ladder (veterans for the novelity, new players because it's more accesible). Yes, the current ranked ladder might slow down even more during this period.
    - After some time: veterans who already have a lot of runes will go back to the actual ladder as it is more challenging (devs should put focus on the current ranked ladder as well)
    - After new players are familiar and got some more runes: most players should move to the current ranked system
    - With each additional influx of new players, they have an easy place to start (and knowing this community, some veterans will start playing the additional ladder during these times)

    Even as a veteran the number one reason I have not started playing PoxNora again is because it's just to overwhelming to dive into it again.
    I'm sure I'm not the only one with this sentiment. How often don't we see old veterans return, just to leave a little bit later again?

    P.S.: I would also strongly vote to remove 2v2 from ranked, not because I don't think it's a "cool game mode" but as it devaluates the current ranked ladder as it will never be balanced.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2017
    Bighugelarge likes this.
  10. MaruXV

    MaruXV Corgi Lord of FW

    i understand your point but the kind of player that stucks with pox usually enjoys the complexity and variety. i myself stay and overlook the problems because there is no game out there with this variety and complexity. if it became a 2.0 with 200 runes, i would probably not enjoy it this much, because there are also other games out there that would have a similar complexity to a 200 runes pox.
     
  11. Poxpoints

    Poxpoints I need me some PIE!

    I agree with this sentiment 100%, but it takes time to appreciate the complexity.
    For all clearness, I'm not proposing a Pox 2.0.

    Adding my proposed additional ladder hopefully gives players the time to appreciate the game and its complexity.
    The players that stick to PoxNora, like you said, like the complexity, so they will move on to the current ranked ladder.
    The ones that do not like this complexity will drop out of the game eitherway, but you need to give new and returning players a way to ease into it.
    PoxNora currently does not do this at all.

    Last I checked it goes something like this:
    1) New player joins game and plays walkthroughs vs stupidly easy AI with a premade BG.
    2. a) New player starts playing single player (you get stuck here to grind runes vs a stupid AI to eventually join PvP, for which you're not prepared or drop out)
    2. b) New player tries PvP immediately and gets crushed (you have a hard road of being overwhelmed, facing veterans, not having the runes you need, or drop out)

    What I propose hopefully accomplishes the following:
    1) New player joins PoxNora and plays walkthroughs
    2) New player gets introduced to core set ladder + can play each faction with a strong deck of that faction (as balancing would only need to happen once, with a few small tweaks in the long run)
    3) New player gets hooked and makes his own deck for core set ladder
    4) New player now has some runes and moves on to the actual ladder (he has some PvP experience (playing and deckbuilding) and some gold / shards from playing core set ladder to start his first actual ranked deck)

    TL;DR ease players into the beautiful complexity of PoxNora
     
    Bighugelarge and xaznsoulx like this.
  12. MaruXV

    MaruXV Corgi Lord of FW

    instead of core set ladder i would go for a draft/sealed ranked ladder. that would be better for everybody ;)
     
  13. Poxpoints

    Poxpoints I need me some PIE!

    I disagree, not because I don't think it would not be a fun game mode, but because I strongly believe it's not new player friendly.

    Not to say this isn't an interesting idea, but it seems more an idea for after there is an established playerbase that warrants the possibility of splitting it up.
     
  14. MaruXV

    MaruXV Corgi Lord of FW

    i think that is more new user friendly because you get to see a lot of runes and abilities without having to get them. so you get used to a lot more abilities/champs than in a core only format.
     
  15. badgerale

    badgerale Warchief of Wrath

    I honestly don't think pox can go on with the old graphics, and with runes piling upon runes, for more than a few years.

    But, to get a sense of perspective, if it lasts a few more years that will be a pretty good thing and should be considered a success.

    But, and this might be wildly optimistic of me, but it could also be part of a strategy for creating awareness and so setting up pox 2.
     
  16. Poxpoints

    Poxpoints I need me some PIE!

    The reason I disagree is because new players won't have the time to read all the abilities and directly see what works well together, causing them to most of the time create a bad deck in this format.
    This will make them lose more often and they will have the feeling it's because the game is not balanced, even if they might be wrong. Sentiment is enough to drive players away (or get them attached).

    But I think we will have to agree to disagree here, haha!
    Thanks for the input though!
     
    Bighugelarge, MaruXV and Kampel like this.
  17. MaruXV

    MaruXV Corgi Lord of FW

    yeah np man;) i still think that people gettin discouraged by losing at beginning will eventually not stay in pox longer, cause its agame that needs patience and learning. so its better to focus on this kind of players rather than short-time newcomers. but thats my opinion.
     
  18. MaruXV

    MaruXV Corgi Lord of FW

    i correct you: give a new player a tier 0 bg and he will lose vs a top 10 player playin a bg of randomly generated common runes.
     
    Etherielin likes this.
  19. Poxpoints

    Poxpoints I need me some PIE!

    I want to point out that I am NOT vouching for a rotation system here.
    I want Core Set to remain exactly how it is, without it changing ever (except for some small tweaks at the start to make Core Set in itself balanced).
    Additional to our current ranked ladder, I would like another ladder with Core Set only runes. No rotation or nothing, just an entry point for new and returning players.
    All high-end competitive play should still happen in the current ranked ladder (with all runes available: core set, extended set and latest expansion).

    You have been pointing out the problems here yourself, but I do believe there are solutions: high skill cap -> make the learning curve easier, broad options -> don't introduce them all at once.
    Hearthstone is way to much luck and counter based. An amazing winrate at high ranks is 65%. I strongly dislike that about HS and am most definitely not looking to make Pox less complex, I just want new and returning players to see stepping stones, instead of a wall when playing PoxNora.

    Especially for such a complex game as PoxNora, I firmly believe you need these stepping stones for new players to give the game a proper shot, definitely in the current market.
    I believe a Core Set only ladder can be seen as such a stepping stone, easing the learning curve and introducing options in a less overwhelming fashion.
    This ladder is meant to give new and returning players a foothold in PvP, without immediately having to deal with learning over 2000 runes.
    As a new player, with this additional ladder, you're learning all the Core Set runes at first (together with basic PvP and deckbuilding mechanics of PoxNora).
    On top of that you can start off with a competitive premade deck for this ladder, which never needs to be updated after being implemented the first time around as the runes in this ladder never change.
    Later a player can carry all this gathered experience over to the high-end ranked ladder (the current one) and get amazed by all the options and the additional layers of complexity PoxNora has to offer without facing a wall (well at least less high of a wall).
     
    Bighugelarge likes this.
  20. aseryen

    aseryen I need me some PIE!

    This just says it perfectly. Poxnora has gone through many eras, and thankfully a lot of expansions, but the state of the game is still the same, that is:

    1. It is bounded by STATs/Abilities(rune content), Maps/Game Modes(Incentives)
    2. Expansions (rune content/incentives)
    3. Playerbase



    No idm that people copy decks, that builds player knowledge, I like the customization and the freedom Pox offers, I want more.

    There's no reason to think that every person practicing something has the intention of pursuing the highest level and if they do, it does not mean that they will want to persue it competitively.

    Not every player wants to play ranked and certainly I'm not speaking for any other player but myself. I can't change how someone plays Pox, unless creating a custom match. I wouldn't say playing ranked is practice, unless you have the intention of playing ranked competitively. You can gain just as much knowledge if not more from idle gameplay in PvE. If I want to play ranked now I would set the time aside to just play Ranked but rn I can't, if I were to play ranked I wouldn't mind climbing the ladder either. That is part of playing competitively; ladder, meta, efficiency, etc.

    I just personally like the pace of PvE, I can play more leisurely and really I'm more enticed by all the stories that play out in my mind; which faction, what runes are going to interact with what...yadayada. It's my own reason why I play pox and PvE right now is how I want to play.

    I also enjoy kicking back and playing pox on the Steam controller, which I tend to miss click more and I have tested and timed myself how long it takes to execute the set runes/abilities/formations I want to play and it just runs up against the clock too much.

    Largely it comes down to Killing the Shrine in Pox for a new player (which I'm most interested in) and ultimately that is still the same for players at lvl 99. It becomes a collectible game unless playing ranked. Knowledge is relative, my having been exo is relative, so is creating custom game matches.

    Killing the shrine is the end goal of each match, PvE or PvP. Balance jerks players out of what they can reliably play which is not bad at all. We are all playing the same game. There's nothing wrong with that but if we are going to have the discussion of what brings in new players I see game modes more beneficial than the knowledge jerking Expansions/Patches/Midterms bring which are expected to continue and hopefully more frequently.

    Player knowledge is going to effect player retention. If there is no other way of interacting with runes except by collecting more runes and then playing with another player, AI is what is left.

    NUX
    Collect:
    1.Runes*
    2.Gameplay basics
    3. Rune Knowledge*

    * Changed on a patch/expansion/midterm basis

    The Devs are operating in a flatlanders world, only seeing Runes and what they may or may not be if they move this here or that there. The key is letting players do that for them, it was already done for an expansion, time to let players just have full reigns of match types. I wouldn't mind if the Devs took the time to release some new spritework for maps, build up their portfolio so that asking for modding capabilities isn't unacceptable. Asking to put our own artwork is a dream that may have came true had UE4 been used. However some drag and drop features to edit maps would be nice and I think a smoother approach gaining players than consistently shaking the tree in attempts to balance.

    I'm not sure how often custom matches get used, and if they do, once they are modified what is the discussion about balance then? It has always been geared towards ranked which will always be a two legged stool. Allowing customization is what supports ranked and you cannot use bg composition(when the devs control the runes and those have no integrity except Race:Class) to support the other two legs.

    Bg composition is an element of 1.Runes, as is accessibility and possession. Rune Knowledge is deserving of its own NUX category since the general character loadouts are expected to be unchanged Vampyres will stay Vampyres, undead will stay undead, plants will stay plants.


    Spare Parts/Beatow is a pretty unique rune module. It just so happens that this
    interaction with races is very specific to the 'State' of a unit. Vinetouch Pedestal, Taint, Blessing of Al'mara, Necro Hex, Identity Crisis are change the state(race) of a unit. Metamorphosis, does not count, Mutate does not grant race:Mutant. However like I said above, introducing global mechanics that players can interact with is a better approach imo to retaining new players. I.e Predeployed vinetouch Pedestal, Tainted Font Zones, Global Identity Crisis, etc.

    Collecting is fun but if runes are always going to change then relying on game state is the only way to keep player knowledge. The game state goes for how Races:Classes are perceived since those are really the most unchanged elements in the game, as are most of the classic RPG elements; stats, abilities, resources. I really only see Race:Class as the constants in Poxnora, Faction too but that's kind of just a design boundary, as I said most RPG elements are constant and so character sheets/loadouts can be theorized, just like every game.

    It's just my opinion that we should have more interaction with the state of the game, ala custom game matches and campaign/map modding. I don't see how buffing/nerfing existing runes does anything more novel than implementing predeployed Runes or gameplay conditions that will become more known and become player objectives that bgs can be designed for.

    Is adding a choice of Defender/Shroud at summoner lvl 25 so off base? At lvl 50 you can change the terrain of your Font zone? I guess I just think of RPG elements a lot, hence the call for Pox2.0 although I think Poxnora as it is now doesn't need saving just needs to prop itself on player content, which can still be regulated and restricted by the devs. Pox2.0 should be on Unreal Engine.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2017

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