Surge and amp shouldn't exist.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Yourmom, Jul 23, 2015.

  1. Yourmom

    Yourmom The King of Potatoes

    I think it's lazy. I agree with themes, but surge makes it too easy. There are so many sandboxed runes that don't fit into a theme because they can't compete with surge or amp. There even a lot of potential themes that we could play if surge didn't exist. It makes it really hard to compete if you're trying to play other kind of BG's. You can't compete with the damage. Why do you think the most powerful BG's have surge?
  2. Revengercm

    Revengercm I need me some PIE!

    Mom stahp
  3. Anima26

    Anima26 I need me some PIE!

    Surge Rank 2 is very strong indeed, it gets stronger the longer the game goes too usually. Amp seems very strong too but i like both abilities. Not sure how balanced they truly are.
  4. chickenpox2

    chickenpox2 I need me some PIE!

    only way i can think of to berf amp is making it 5% instead of 10 but still have 50% max
    also reduce heart of gnash and d skull to 15%
  5. Yourmom

    Yourmom The King of Potatoes

    Why do you like it? Because it's strong?
    I think there are plenty of abilities that work in a theme that doesn't require amp, Fire is my favorite BG but I don't use amp as my main prerogative.

    It's lazy. Quit allowing it.
  6. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    I think surge and amp are ok as long as you have to spend enough nora to benefit from them. choking aura gives vulnerable poison though for like the same cost as 10% amp, this is too strong.
  7. Pixyrus

    Pixyrus Forum Royalty

    Anima26 likes this.
  8. Anima26

    Anima26 I need me some PIE!

    I dont know, they just seem quite flavorful really, i enjoy the variety of decks Amp brings to the table and Surge is a similar mechanic in that allows a variety of race themes to work well. If anything maybe Surge rank 1 would be enough, Surge rank 2 gets pretty crazy. I think there a bigger issues than Surge rank 2 and Amp: X though.
  9. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    that's because shes only strong in spiders and spiders suck against many top bgs. They have no range and are super vulnerable to ranged and aoe damage. as well as anti summon abilities and cc. Hammer strike bane blast or your factions equivalent and k'lzik is deleted. Like half the factions have instant kill combos, to kill most non IS/moog nora cost champs.
  10. BigToastie

    BigToastie The King of Potatoes

    Amp and Surge are fine to me in general.
    It's the access poison has to grant vuln poison on very viable champs and relics (Choking Aura) I will compare the 2 most similar runes from different amp decks.

    Frost Amp has Howling wind comparing to Poisons The Foulest Mushroom.

    Howling Wind cost: 40 nora
    Grants vuln frost / sonic for one turn IF it does damage (so it doesn't effect FF IS, Weaken Spells, or Arctic champs) in an aoe 5 for 1 turn.

    Foulest Mushroom cost: 30 nora
    25 hitpoint relic (so can be used to contest fonts)
    Grants +10% poison damage global
    Grants aoe6 vuln poison to all enemy champions (no conditions really negate this other than the obvious eater/immunity)
    and also gives poison cloud on deploy (good to put against ranged units).

    I dont play either deck, but just looking at this on paper, the shroom for 30 nora provides too much to the theme.

    I would propose changing it to do the following:
    Cost: 30
    Hitpoints: 15
    This relic has choking stench and "Release Toxins"
    Release Toxins (CD3): All enemy champions within 5 spaces become vulnerable to poison for the remainder of the turn. All friendly champions with attack: poison get a rank of poison for the remainder of the turn.
  11. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    aoe vulnerability is bs and should be removed from bgs with access to amp.
  12. Elves Rule

    Elves Rule I need me some PIE!

    Surge and amp are, in fact, enablers of the themes, and are required to make many of them work.

    Amps are the reason that things like magic amp and frost amp exist. Otherwise it would be running lots of units with magic attack/frost attack, and there would be almost no synergy apart from the fact that there might be 1 or 2 champs you can hit with your own aoes and not worry about it, and apart from that... well, at least you can get countered easily?

    As for surge, yes there are many themes that work without it. But there are many that rely on it to survive. Themes like treefolk and spiders, for example. What synergy do spiders have? Um, multiattack when you have lots of them? They can move through the web and not get entangled, maybe? Most of what they do comes from surge. And the same can be said for treefolk, almost. Yes they have all the buffs, and greenhouse, and transplant, and much more synergy, but after the nerfs to nearly all of them, the fact that they all have +2dmg and +5hp still doesn't actually do too much, and a large amount of their power/usefulness comes from summoning saplings and utilising surge. I'm sure that if treefolk had as good champs as spiders, and spiders had as much synergy as treefolk, they would both be perfectly viable to not have surge.

    Even though other themes that may or may not be able to do well without surge, that doesn't mean that it's inherently a badly designed and "lazy" ability.
  13. Bellagion

    Bellagion I need me some PIE!

    This doesn't really respond to the original poster's concerns though. He's not saying that surge and amp aren't necessary to themes or not enablers. He's saying that as enablers they overshadow other types of theme synergies and are too strong for how simple they are to employ.

    It seems to me like you're kind of proving his point. You're listing these themes that crutch hard on surge. He's saying that surge is strong as a mechanic so they become the main reason to make a theme... which is what you also are saying. The difference is that he thinks it's lazy and therefore bad while you think it's not lazy and fine.

    To be clear, I'm not advocating one position or another. I'm just pointing out that your post doesn't really refute what he claims.
  14. Vote Kanye 2020

    Vote Kanye 2020 Better-Known Member

    For myself amp seems fine, because it requires build up and actually requires you to build the bg around it and run champs with amplify: X ability. However surge 2 always seemed problematic in themes like dragons because you don't really have to go out of your way to achieve benefits, you just simply have to deploy any random champ that shares a race that Surge: X is asking for.
  15. Anima26

    Anima26 I need me some PIE!

    I wouldnt be hugely sad if i saw Surge 1 and Surge 2 consolidated into just Surge: x. Just a one rank ability.
  16. Elves Rule

    Elves Rule I need me some PIE!

    Oh, I see. Because I thought it was sort of an intentional choice: some themes have good champs/abilities, some don't but rely on "ramping up" in the late game to win either by stacking champs for surge or stacking unit's with amp. Like a way to diversify themes, make sure they're all different. Otherwise it would just all be some champs that maybe share an ability, or have specific buffs, for every theme.
  17. darklord48

    darklord48 Forum Royalty

  18. Yourmom

    Yourmom The King of Potatoes

    I think it is problematic for the themes that also have summon and swarm. Like the other day playing against bog hoppers I saw a tidemaster that was at 25 damage by turn 6. A ranged unit especially shouldn't have surge. That's ridiculously overpowered. It hard enough fighting against all that cheap meat.
  19. spineyftw

    spineyftw I need me some PIE!

    Surge 1 isn't even that good. It's a noobtrap if anything.
    Anima26 likes this.
  20. Pedeguerra

    Pedeguerra I need me some PIE!

    Wow, really? WTF happened to this game, man.
    KingJad likes this.

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