Terrorist Attacks in Belgium: Europe United?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by DarkJello, Mar 18, 2016.

  1. free20play

    free20play I need me some PIE!

    things like nationalism,and isms in general are frowned upon by my fellow muslims. because any way of life or thinking that conflicts with even a basic tenet of the quran or hadiths can't ever be accepted.
    the thing that irks me is these so called muslim leaders are not real muslims. our faith is for everyone. to us all humans are supposed to be equal. so how can we hate others just because they are different.
    the true muslims who lived near the prophets time at best just gave a small tax to non muslims living their terrority and the funny thing is those non muslims were some of the wealthiest people and most accomplished in muslim lands at those times so clearly some part of history got distorted. Ssomething is wrong when the so called leaders of the islamic world are doing clearly unislamic things and the west generalizes that about my faith. Our faith is not something we as muslims should compromise on; if we change one little thing to appease others then that'll open a pandoras box and before you know it a few generations later your own children will be believing in a 2 gods or something completely different.
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2016
  2. Geressen

    Geressen Forum Royalty

    you need to learn how to use the enter key to make paragraphs, like really badly.

    While you have some good points some of what you wrote is clearly not true, religions all starting as monotheistic then warping? nah, that makes no historical sense, people in the old times being less likely to believe something unless shown actuall miracles? that would be true if you consider magic tricks, chemistry and medicine to be miracles but with the knowledge we have of the world this veneer of divinity falls apart like cheap gold laquer.

    I would ask for clarification on some of the things you have written but the wall of text is making me dizzy. I could quote your post in bits and go contest every time you refer to god(s) and demons and spirits* But I don't think that would be a line of discussion we will be quick to agree on and not productive to the discussion in this thread. though I might gain some amusement from it.

    *( AS IF THEY WHERE REAL THINGS (I couldn't resist writing this.) )
  3. free20play

    free20play I need me some PIE!

    dude i am not a learned scholar of faith. i don't want to give myself a sin for talking about things i am may misinterpret or say wrong. you just have to be a truthseeker and find out the truth yourself.
    Chemistry and medicine and science in general are encouraged by islam; infact i don't get what the whole science in religion war; since im a muslim we don't have anything equivalent that like that, god bless, unless somehow everyone in our faith becomes completely corrupted we won't have anything like what happened to christianity. For us science or pursuing of truth is something we were already doing.and allah/god encourages us to become smarter and teach ourselves, so things like seeking knowledge are encouraged. As for the first thing how do you know whether or not religion first started off as monotheism or not; we don't have any actual history that can relied upon or really trusted.Unless you can somehow build a time machine and take me along with you to meet the first human beings then im not sure why i should believe what your saying. If at best you can just provide some data but no real proof then why i should trust you? You can say the same about my faith but i could do the same too. In the end its up to you as a human being to find out what you truly think.
  4. free20play

    free20play I need me some PIE!

    gods lol? there is no such thing as a multiple gods. there can only be one supreme being, all powerful creator. if there were more then one god they'd just keep fighting each other and the world probably wouldn't exist like it does now. lets be honest mutliple gods never makes sense. it really doesn't I could probably keep talking about this for days. To begin with god is supposed to be all powerful and truly omnipotent. if there's more then one then its like they aren't really omnipotent are they? Islam is about pure monotheism. we can't draw pictures of god or make statues or symbols, we can at best just write his name in a beautiful way through calligraphy on books or on our buildings,etc. We have to believe in him being an absolute omnipotent in every sense of the word. And its never too late to gain his forgiveness because some of his 99 attributes/characteristics that only belong to him. Is All merciful and Most Merciful and All Forgiving. Even if you believe yourself to be unredeemable and have committed many bad deeds. Its never too late go gain his forgiveness. We don't believe that our religious leaders imams/sheikhs can forgive us for god. they are literal nobodies and just human beings too. Thats just really absurd to us muslims. The idea any other human being posses any power even remotely similiar to god or that they can commune for us like middleman. We just can't accept that on many levels; atleast true muslims. again there are Shiites who deviate and probably worship their imams or sheikhs like god himself but again those aren't true muslims. Again you'll tell me nobody can decide who true muslims or not like some lunatics say. But lets say 200 years from now people are worshipping 200 gods and they originally worshipped 1 god. im pretty sure those people might as well be from a different religion even if they have the same language,same culture,same country of origin,etc from the earlier group.
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2016
  5. free20play

    free20play I need me some PIE!

    again im not a scholar of the faith* so anything i say you should take with a grain of salt. go research for the truth yourself and figure out what to believe in.
  6. free20play

    free20play I need me some PIE!

    Also islamic terrorism as a word pisses me off; well so do most -isms. I'd appreciate it if people just called groups like isis just plain and straight terrorists. Because really they aren't true muslims when they go around killing fellow muslims(killing other human beings is one of the major sins that takes you straight to hell for us muslims;unless its for self defense;or when there's an actual jihad which probably won't occur anytime soon since the muslim world is divided and caliphate non existent;there's also a hadith saying that if you kill one person its the same as having killed all of humanity) and god knows what else. If i were a christian or jew i'd also want the same thing. I'd wouldn't want to be generalized. Nobody does.
  7. Ohmin

    Ohmin Forum Royalty

    Agreed, but would it kill you to format? It'd make it a little easier for those of us that want to read your stuff. (Which I'll get to more of later, probably. I do appreciate your input and perspective.)
  8. badgerale

    badgerale Warchief of Wrath

    So do you think it would be fair if Western countries imposed a tax on Muslims (which they don't have to pay if they convert to Christianity)?
  9. Geressen

    Geressen Forum Royalty

    lol wow.
    there is no such thing as a god.
    A god never makes sense.

    god is what people use to fill in the blanks instead of using science to find out what is true. XD
    do you even scientific method bro?
    Pattn199 likes this.
  10. free20play

    free20play I need me some PIE!

    All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.
    The Beneficent, the Merciful.
    Master of the Day of Judgment.
    Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help.
    Keep us on the right path.
    The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray.

    we have to recite this everyday when we do our 5 daily prayers which i wish more muslims took seriously since they seem to think they can pray 2 days on monday and 3 the next and compromise their faith.

    the 5 daily prayers are mandatory for us. as for living life as a muslim there really aren't many restrictions. as long as we follow the pillars of islams.
    1.shadaha : belief in the oneness of god/allah
    2. 5 prayers done every day ; at sunset ; after noon , middle of the night ; this mainly exists to remind us about god/allah and its very important; we have to do wudu or absolution which means ritual cleaning/cleansing of thyself, we also have to face the kabah when we are praying.
    3. Fasting; when its on the mandatory months of ramadan; again alot of muslims don't truly fast properly. for some ramadan instead of being a month when they strengthen their ties to god they instead commit overindulgence and sins.
    4. Zakah the sharing of wealth between the rich and poor; this is because god gave so people more then others, so we as muslims if were able are supposed to help those less fortunate then us.
    5.Hajj which is pilgrimage to the holy kabah and makkah once in your life if you are healthy and able to afford it.Doing the Hajj once is a big deal. Since all the previous sins you commited if you've done the hajj properly are supposed to cleansed away. but again there are people who aren't doing Hajj properly and its more like a vacation for them which is sad.

    so yeah those are the 5 pillars of islam.
  11. free20play

    free20play I need me some PIE!

    Dude I respect the scientific method but it can't subvert faith. The whole point in faith is to believe in something unerringly. god or allah said he could easily make it so everyone could notice his presence and he could obviously make it so there'd be no doubt about him. But then that'd defeat the whole purpose of him giving us free will. The reason why we have free will is so we can question whether or not he exists. And choose to believe in him or not. And then either be punished or rewarded for what path we took. The whole point of god not being viewable is so we can choose. If everyone could see god or interact with him then why'd did he bother giving us free will?
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2016
  12. free20play

    free20play I need me some PIE!

    I don't see anything wrong;seeing as how we muslims did the same thing in the past during the times of Caliphate; as long it was a small amount like 1% ; if they suddenly were to ask for all of your money you can damn well be insured there'd be an uprising/rebellion. If Someone is to rule over a country they'd have to do it humanely even if it was a muslim country. If you treat your fellow human beings unequally then there'll be fighting. Again i don't see anything wrong with religious tax; as it was done during the caliphate. so im sure its not against my faith, but its possible im misheard of misinterpreted something wrong. The thing though is interest. Us muslims can't really use credit cards,etc because interest is considered one of the major sins for us. its the same to us like having sex with ones own mother. Interest to us is considered one of the major sins.This is way too big for me to talk about. I am not a learned scholar of faith, I can't trust what i say not being wrong somehow so again take anything i say with a grain of salt and go seek out the truth yourselves.
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2016
  13. Geressen

    Geressen Forum Royalty

    This god has the power to end the wars fought over him, but instead he rewards and punishes people not for being good or bad people but wether or not they blindly follow...

    this makes no sense, free will doesn't change, either we have it or we don't or does knowing god mean you have to unquestioningly follow him? This god person, the more I hear about him the more he sounds like an evil dictator.

    Obviously the test, if this life is such a thing is much deeper:
  14. free20play

    free20play I need me some PIE!

    Hey again im telling you i am not a learned scholar of faith . If you truly wish to know more about Islam, why not go to a mosque;find and read non-biased books concerning my faiths theology and philosophical views;travel and meet the knowledgeable people of faith instead of me? I myself im not eloquent and bad with both tongue and the written word. Im just giving out half assed posts ;and im not 100% sure im even wording them properly.
  15. free20play

    free20play I need me some PIE!

    I fergot to mention this but the reason why alcohol is forbidden to use muslims is because adultery is one of the major sins; and what do you think has lead to adultery more then anything else? the drinking and consumption of alcoholic beverages. also we muslims are forbidden from taking anything that clouds ones clear judgement or capability of thinking. Those arabic hookah bars and etc are truly unislamic and so is smoking cigarettes. Because a hadith says that people in hellfire or hell one of the things they do is quiet similar to cigarette smoking and im not sure how i can explain this properly; i'll just say any substance that isn't used either as food or medicine thats taken into ones body is unislamic. we also can't eat dead meat from carcasses killed by wild animals; only that which is lawfuly slaughtered in the name of god. we can't eat meat eating animals like snakes,crocodiles,etc. We can eat herbivores like Cows,Goats,Ox,Camels. But there's an exception for everything from the ocean specifically. We are allowed to things such as sharks which are meat eating only because everything from the ocean is lawful to us.We aren't allowed to eat pigs. Probably for many different reasons. Because at the prophets time pigs were some of the most unsanitary animals and people got sick from them constantly in pre islamic arab world. And because pigs in general harbor many diseases or worms or stuff in general not good for humans to consume even when taken care of properly.We also aren't allowed to own dogs as pets or touch them. Not because there's something inherently wrong with dogs but because some of the non muslims that the early muslims were around had many rituals of sacrifice and did many disgusting things with dogs so in trying to keep ourselves a far away from these pagans we adopted a policy of not keeping dogs. Thats not to say something like guard dogs weren't allowed, or dogs used to herd sheep,i believe you can own a dog for those reasons as its not unislamic,but if the dog touchs you and you have its salivia or bodily fluids from it you'd have to wash your hands or wherever it touched. Another reason why is because the salivia of dogs has many diseases in it so in trying to keep ourselves as clean as possible we couldn't allow dogs to be inside our homes. And the technology wasn't as advanced by then so yes it was a not a good idea to keep a dog with you if you wanted to be clean and hygienic; and was generally frowned upon. also again i fergot to mention this but its not just pictures of the prophet or god that we can't have. in general as muslims we can't have pictures of living beings in our homes or anywhere. the reason why is to probably to strengthen our faith; since islam grew up in a place were people worshiped statues of their ancestors/ancestor worship or worshiped idols/pictures /etc and we really didn't want to have anything near our faith that could subvert it. again the part of the world islam grew up in was a ****ed up place and it was like a beacon of light. but again thats not to say stuff like cartoons can't exist; but yeah i guess they'd be frowned upon. since as muslims we'd probably be worried more about the hereafter then making things like cartoons. But yeah there are muslim cartoonist and they are pretty cool people. but im not a scholar so i can't really say much about that topic.
    now about cleaniness since i talked about pigs and dogs awhile ago:

    “O you who believe! When you intend to offer the prayer, wash your faces and your hands (forearms) up to the elbows, wipe your heads, and (wash) your feet up to the ankles. If you are in a state of Janaba (i.e. had a sexual discharge) purify yourself.” (Quran 5:6)

    there's this and also a verified hadith narrated that states "cleanliness is one half of faith/imam". So yeah we as muslims gotta keep ourselves in a state of cleaniness whether its at work,school,or home. Its quiet a big deal but again you can't expect everyone to be able to practice this sadly. as some people will lead lives as beggars and struggle to even have enough money to meet ends meet,living paycheck to paycheck.We have to do both ritual cleaning and normal cleaning before we pray,have sex,and in general stay clean. Its also forbidden for us to have long nails. Gosh there's just alot of stuff i COULD talk to you guys about but i am not a learned scholar of faith; so really I would no doubt say things improperly and im not skilled in the art of dawah(basically the art of religious calling;think people skilled at debating) so i can't debate properly.
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2016
  16. badgerale

    badgerale Warchief of Wrath

    I somehow doubt that it was that low in the first caliphate, or under ISIS. According to Wikipedia it was a major source of income for early Islamic rulers.

    But no matter how much it was, it is still coercion. It is saying 'we will make life harder for you unless you convert. An improvement on being beheaded certainly, but it contradicts your sentiment about the early converts to Islam being a free choice.

    Of course, being a Muslim in Europe at that time would have likely been even worse. So I'm not claiming cultural superiority. But at the same time, I don't hold that period to be an ideal we should aspire to.

    In any case, thank you for providing your perspective. You seem like a decent guy, despite sharing a very different belief system to me.
    Geressen likes this.
  17. Dagda

    Dagda Forum Royalty

    out of personal curiosity, free20, i've heard that the quran is best read in arabic- does it lose meaning in other languages, or just elegance/style/similar?
  18. free20play

    free20play I need me some PIE!

    Yes we really aren't allowed to read the quran in any language other then arabic. While we could and it'd make alot of muslims lives easier since Islams a universal faith and we have numerous groups of people over the world who are muslim speaking/reading completely different languages with each other.We just aren't allowed because people could and would mistranslate and its happened before in other faiths. So in a effort to make sure no innovation or change or distortion is brought to our holy book we make sure to teach our kids to learn how to read and write the same arabic as our prophet once used.

    And so far its worked. Since arabic as language has remained in the same state since prophet muhammed and hasn't really changed. You can research this yourself its actually true,Which is an anomaly considering most languages have major changes after only a few centuries.And yes you can't translate a religious text to another language without losing some of its meaning. Thats atleast something to be proud of us as muslims. We haven't altered our religious text yet*. But there of course exceptions like shiites/shiates who again im maddened people even consider muslims. The good thing is 90% of muslims or an overwhelming majority are still sunni and followers of the original and true islam.

    The quran in arabic is one of the most beautiful things you could ever hear or read.Let me just state this the arabic the quran uses is not the same arabic the modern arabs use. The arabic in the quran is the like the equivalent of Shakespeare's old english. So there's alot of terms like "We" "Thy" "Thou" etc. And again its rather beautiful so if you ever have the time please learn arabic and read the quran. But if your english and unwilling to learn the closest thing you'll ever get to a faithful translation if you just want to understand Islam more is Marmaduke Pickthalls english translation or Yusuf Ali's revised version of Pickthalls translation. Both of them stay really close as possible to being proper translations. But again translations will never be equal to the real thing.

    and not everyone is a practicing or good muslim. especially in this age where people are struggling to even preserve themselves with all the temptations and sin around. its sad when i look at my muslim countrymen. we divide ourselves now by race,by nation or state,our caliphate is gone,we attack the the scholars and learned people of faith. you have muslim governments where they'll blatantly ignore advice from the faithful if it'll suit them and only listen every now and then to look muslim sometimes they won't even bother with that. corruption is rampant and there are few people actively trying to be good but they'll be put in prisons if they even denounce whoever is charge. there's just a bunch of effed things going around everywhere. and there are so many lies going around its kinda hard to see any truth.
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2016
  19. Geressen

    Geressen Forum Royalty

    Mostly style and elegance I'd wager, arabic looks really pretty. sounds bad to me though.

    I agree @badgerale that @free20play seems like a decent person.

    But I find the disconnect between the paralells between blindly following faith as told by religious scholars many of whom he himself says are corrupt or not following true islam and blindly following a dictator disconcerting.

    Doesn't seem to understand his view of god is to me the same as his view of any other god or gods.

    Christianity and Latin and keeping power in the church... Just saying.

    Those are informal ways to refer to someone, the English just got too stuck up in formality. Dutch people treated English tourists not as exhalted guests but as equals and 350 years later people still say we are rude.
  20. free20play

    free20play I need me some PIE!

    well the thing is islam itself hasn't been corrupted. the faith is pretty much the exact same since the prophet. luckily. its just muslim goverments or whoevers in charge choose to ignore it and only follow it when it suits them.

    And again the 1st pillar of faith for us muslims is the shahada(most important saying); "There is no god but god. And Muhammed is the messenger of god." we literally say this almost all the time. when your praying.whenever you can.when your first becoming a muslim. Im not really good at dawah so really i don't think i could explain to you geressen what tawhiid or belief in the oneness of god is. Its just to us there is a clear deference between mutliple gods existing and a singular truly omnipotent god. So if you want to believe in mutliple gods or no god thats up to you. But for us muslims we have to believe in gods one-ness.

    I never said the religious scholars are corrupt just the leaders and governments,basically those in charge of. The religious scholars if they were corrupt would be the downfall of islam; since they are the first most vanguard of the faith and the ones who revitalize it whenever its falling. also we do not have the equivalent of a churh. the reason why we use arabic to read the quran is so we don't distort or end up changing our religion and to preserve it, how is that not a simple concept to understand? and again we don't have the equivalent of a church. infact anyone can become a learned scholar and its not like there's restrictions. if you know alot about the faith people will tend to respect you thats a given. but it really has no advantages since you really aren't getting much except the prayers and thanks of less knowledgeable muslims. Now i won't say there aren't corrupt muslims who abuse their knowledge and try to get money offers or other services or even distort the faith. thats probably how some of the more ridiculous shiite sects came into being. but again corrupt and evil people will exist somewhere thats a given in this worldly life.

    again i find it funny why you bring the church analogy because we never had the equivalent of a church. heck the ma-alams or teachers who taught me at duqsi when i was young were probably underpaid for what they did. they'd have to sit in a small room trying to teach a bunch of stinky screaming children and thats probably not how i'd want my day go. we never had things like witch hunting. as a muslim we can't believe in things like superstition or occult we can only believe in that which was revealed to us through the quran or from the prophet himself. We also can't gamble. We don't believe in things like charms and we aren't allowed to do anything related to do that. So we'd never have things like the witch hunts the church did. Because our faith is against things like that on a basic level. Thats not to say it'd be impossible to ever occur but if it did then those people would probably be muslims in all but name. there is no centralized organization for our faith. There are best things like muslim student association or small groups of people doing this or that but we never really had centralized organization for our faith. imams or sheikhs are more like local things. and outside of iran which is populated by shiites who innovate in religion the shiekh in someones mosque has no real power. most of the decision making
    in mosque's or masjids have belongs to a small panel of carefuly selected and trusted people who all contributed or are very active in that mosque/local community.One would be the treasurer who'd have to review all the business decisions another would be related to the mosque's maintenance.And even then they have many rules and regulations made and set in stone by the religious scholars that they have to follow and if they make even one small mistake they pretty much can be called out by anyone who notices it even if they just visited this mosque or masjid for the first time in their life and came from like another part of the world and if they can't explain themselves they'd probably lose their position.
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2016

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