The fw problem

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by super71, Nov 26, 2017.

  1. super71

    super71 I need me some PIE!

    On a serious note, why are they the only faction that gets to keep all their nonsense. Fw is easily the most versatile faction in the game.

    7 speeders with soulstrike
    essence drain
    steal life
    summon spam
    big cheap meat shields

    Basically i'm tired of every faction losing their op stuff, but fw has basically remained the same, sure a couple minor nerfs here and there but nothing overwhelming. We all know that the "council" or whatever it is now, is completely biased, and i'm sure this thread will be met with the usual, but it doesn't take away from the fact that all the above is true.

    New players typically ask what faction should I start with, my response is always fw. My reason behind this is the themes play themselves, positioning hardly matters as your champs always will be back when you need them, most bgs are pretty cheap, endless meat spam, and the biggest thing is endless versatility.

    When I myself play fw and my opponent deploys anything I never sit and think that's gonna be hard to take care of, doom, essence drain, glimpse of death, soul reave, reaper's blade.

    Many factions do a couple things well, or even excellent, but fw does everything excellent, their isn't a single category where I can say they under perform, other than maybe healing, but their bonus makes it redundant to heal anyways.

    We say the big drawback of fw is their bonus, I've always disagreed, the bonus is good because when an opponent loses a key champ, which is very easy against fw, then they most likely won't get it back before the games over. Fw doesn't have to worry about losing a key champ ever, as it will be back before you know it. Many themes crutch off of one key rune or a couple key runes, take out those runes and the theme/bg fails. This isn't and never has been a problem for fw because of their bonus.

    Mostly, I think the reason nobody likes fw is because they play so gimmicky, when I lose a key champ I accept that maybe I goofed, against fw it's just I know if I engage with any champ over 75 nora it's gonna be essence drain and then 1 or 2 attacks. It just feels cheap playing against fw most games, like no matter how I changed up my strategy mid-game fw can always adapt to it no matter the bg because they have access to everything.

    I did indeed just lose to fw, stay on the topic please.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2017
  2. Etherielin

    Etherielin The Floof Cultist

    Why play Reaper's Blade for 45 nora when you get Soulreave for 5 nora less and on everyone?
     
  3. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    I saw you lose that game lol. You were playing IS / SL super champ deck versus a single target kill deck... what did you think would happen?
     
  4. super71

    super71 I need me some PIE!

    Fixed my post for you, as I knew a comment like that was inevitable from a frequent fw player.
     
  5. themacca

    themacca Master of Challenges

    Hi, macca here. Notorious FW ****wad (apparently). Im sure we're all very shocked that im here defending FW yet again.

    The whole identity of FW is based around the remnants of old elsarin which was an incredibly powerful magical society, which obviously became undead. This is reflected in FW getting powerful single target spells but it also has below average AOEs. At the same time we mostly have below average champions & for our beaters we're left to rely mostly on who is most efficient, thats why stuff like fleshblight zombie sees play & executioner does not. Even though all other 7 factions would absolutely run executioner if they could.

    Regarding your 5 specific complaints
    Elsarin reaper-Squishy, & is only powerful against more powerful champions, if its ever against summon spam it gets ruined. Also made to be pretty ennificient against support & ranged units because most of them have low base HP. Also for comparisons sake, lets work on 50 HP being the average health for a beater, rounding down makes his damage 12 which thats about average for a beater of that cost. Yes he bypasses defenses, but thats also accomplished by precision & strike as well. 7 speed is nice for a 71 nora unit i'll grant but it's still just a squishy melee unit.

    Essence Drain- This is really done to death. It's a powerful single target spell that FW is dependant on to even the odds against more powerful champions from other factions. Also costs 50 nora which is probably the highest single target spell in the game i can think of.

    Steal life- Uhhhhh, this has not come up in a while but, powerful effect, very specific conditions, expensive cant choose who gets healed & FWs beaters are rarely the ones who want healing.

    Summon Spam- Summon spam in general has had plenty of counters & even punishes introduced into the game to prevent it. Swarm-Battle leader will outright ruin the game for you if thats your strat. Things like cyclops ritualist & anything with shatter summoned is going to make the game incredibly hard

    Meat shields- Faction identity, they're big fat rotten fetid corpses, they take damage but they're slow & most dont hit very hard. most efficient FW-beaters currently are zombie behemoth & fleshblight zombie. Most other factions top beaters will have absolutely no issue with these champs themselves.
     
    Xiven, sirvile and Varthas like this.
  6. Etherielin

    Etherielin The Floof Cultist

    @themacca Spells more expensive than ED: Blink, Fading Recollection, Reverberating Blast (it requires a target), Soul Corruption, Vertical Push, Mirror Trap. Just the single target ones.
     
  7. super71

    super71 I need me some PIE!

    Yes terrible aoes

    Anathema50 nora - 12 magic damage, defiled, inhibited aoe 3
    chain lightning
    desecration- 25 nora for an ao5 for 5 damage, does 10 damage to relics and shrines.
    hungry dead- arguably the best lock down spell in the game

    I'm really feeling for you on the aoe part

    1) Reaper- Squishy ? defiant, 49 hp, 2 defense, siphoning aura, I guess if that's squishy i'm curious what your tanky champ is.
    2) Essence drain is done to death because it's still silly for it's cost.
    3) I agree it's not as great anymore, however it's still a 15 damage 15 heal loss of life damage for 40 nora. Versatility in full here, name me another single target spell besides this that has better versatility. Vertical push maybe, or the electro spell in sp maybe, they are both over 50 nora.
    4) Summon spam does have plenty of counters, mostly in fw.....
    5) meat shields- Faction identity, real quick find me a zombie behemoth in another faction for below 51 nora.

    Below average champions

    reaper
    sword mage- Extremely strong, however in fw he's not even talked about. Ranged attack, great stats, teleport, and a damage boost. 13 damage, 6 speed, 2 defense, 55 hp.
    brightmoon

    Your champs are so over efficient you don't even realize how good they are because you always have better options. Your below average champs really make me wanna play fw, considering they are better than most of every other factions champs besides st.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2017
  8. Ballballer

    Ballballer Chief Antagonist

    My biggest gripe with FW has never been their non-champ options. To me, FW champs have always been less efficient/weaker than champs from other factions, so they make up for it by having an excellent spell set and ways to kill problem champs/get around things.

    However, this gets absolutely blown to pieces in themes like zombies, where their efficiency is far and away better than the opponents champs AND they get the fw non-champ selection as well. Like, I'm fine with all the BS that fw can bring to the table in ensuring my champs die, but you can't then combine those options with themes that are more efficient than my champs, because the whole reason I was okay with your options in the first place was that my champs were more efficient.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2017
    sirvile, Alakhami and Etherielin like this.
  9. super71

    super71 I need me some PIE!

    Second sentence they aren't efficient, second paragraph they are too efficient in zombies. So are the summons over efficient or zombies hp/Nora ratio too efficient ? Are all fw themes over efficient or just zombies ?

    That is part of my argument I listed, I however also believe their spell set is a bit over the top.
     
  10. Varthas

    Varthas I need me some PIE!

    1:
    "On a serious note, why are they the only faction that gets to keep all their nonsense."

    I took the bait so here i go;

    2:
    "New players typically ask what faction should I start with, my response is always fw. My reason behind this is the themes play themselves, positioning hardly matters as your champs always will be back when you need them, most bgs are pretty cheap, endless meat spam, and the biggest thing is endless versatility."

    Yes FW is a good starter, IS is also a good starter. Personally i started with SP and it worked good, i liked SP alot, and i remember i found SP to make more sense in the newbie phase, FW was alot more complicated to me.

    3:
    "When I myself play fw and my opponent deploys anything I never sit and think that's gonna be hard to take care of, doom, essence drain, glimpse of death, soul reave, reaper's blade."

    When i see my opponent deploys something, i always wonder how i gonna afford to counter him. Especially on multifont maps where my weaker champs look like a fool trying to contest the secondary fonts. Sometimes i dont even try to contest it, i might try to stall and then the Nora clock is ticking, if opponent get to keep a free font i must win the main font fast or get a difficult middle game.

    4:
    "Many factions do a couple things well, or even excellent, but fw does everything excellent....."

    Yes!

    5:
    "We say the big drawback of fw is their bonus, I've always disagreed, the bonus is good because when an opponent loses a key champ, which is very easy against fw, then they most likely won't get it back before the games over. Fw doesn't have to worry about losing a key champ ever, as it will be back before you know it."

    When i lose my key champ i am usualy in troubles, and having it back 6-7 turns later doesnt really mean anything at the moment it goes down. Having it back later is good, but it`s Nora cost are the same and if the opponent killed it easily one time he is probably not gonna be intimidated the next time it hits the board.

    6:
    "Mostly, I think the reason nobody likes fw is because they play so gimmicky, when I lose a key champ I accept that maybe I goofed, against fw it's just I know if I engage with any champ over 75 nora it's gonna be essence drain and then 1 or 2 attacks."

    I like FW. And essence drain requires at least two follow up attacks if reapers blade are equipped, that is a 95 Nora combo. I never kill a superchamp with Essence drain and 1 follow up attack, it has never happened. If i can`t afford reapers blade and attacking with normal 9-14 damage champs, it is more like Essence drain + 3-4 attacks, to get 1 champ down. Yes it is effective against that one champ, but often that is all that get done on that turn. And it often end up with all my champs clustered togheter with low ap = some form of aoe spam are sure to follow on opponent turn.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2017
    sirvile likes this.
  11. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    I'm not defending FW as a whole, I'm defending the 7 speeder with soulstrike, Chain lightning, the human root spell etc etc, because they aren't Op.

    Your bg is so gimmicky (not saying that as an insult) that you can't blame FW for being Op when you lose to a theme that hard counters yours.

    You ran and deployed 3 champions with thirst for battle, 1 champion with tough. He deployed 2 soul strikes, and a inkblight with blind and curse. If you had deployed more supports and less super champs, you could have come out ahead on that match . If you had deployed a champion with intimidating, (the is one) you could have dominated. Lastly, encroached champions as well. You can't deploy the crusader champions as "do all" champions for the main meat of your army - they aren't that, they are niche units.

    FW isn't imbalanced in that match, it's things like @Vorian beating @TinyDragon because he forced a 90 hp unit on top of another for what I'm guessing was a very small investment.

    Be fair, you deserved to lose that match and it was a fairly gg.
     
    Xiven likes this.
  12. Vorian

    Vorian I need me some PIE!

    How do you defeat a 91hp with boost and magnify beast, with pounce and 17 damage with berserk attack 3 in the early game all for a gand total of 110 nora? Dont forget DB + Dragons Treasure for further boosts.
     
  13. nepyonisdead

    nepyonisdead I need me some PIE!

    The FW problem summed up in one sentence: FW players are 10x better at complaining than actually playing, and if they played more games than the threads they made complaining about the game .....MAYBE theyd win a game every once in a while.
     
    Drache77 likes this.
  14. OriginalG1

    OriginalG1 I need me some PIE!

  15. super71

    super71 I need me some PIE!

    Never said chain lightning, and the human root spell were op, the Macca said fw has no aoe spells, all of the ones I listed are good aoe spells. Anathema is one of the best aoes in the game, 12 damage and inhibited and defiled and a large aoe for 50 Nora.

    My bgs are always gimmicky, you don't seem to understand, I don't give 2 shits about losing as pox ranked is a joke and always has been. I play pox because of the vast amount of runes and combos, that's the only thing that has ever interested me.

    The bg I used is irrelevant, if I was arguing because I lost that's one thing, but I just don't care if I lose at pox. Don't really think anyone really does care about losing, and if they do they are missing what makes pox so great with its wide variety.

    Yes intimidating would have saved me from the 1-2 range reaper 1-2 range.....

    Your still missing the point because your biased, I don't care that I lost, that's not what bothers me. What bothers me is watching factions lose all sorts of stuff while fw remains the same.
     
  16. Baalzamon

    Baalzamon I need me some PIE!

    You are right but it is not just FW that does that.
     
    nepyonisdead likes this.
  17. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    It was probably nepy who played super
     
  18. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    That's my point lol
     
  19. SireofSuns

    SireofSuns I need me some PIE!

    I feel like FW is consistent in how good it is. That doesn't make it op.
    I can understand the complaint about the spell set + efficient themes. However, there's then the reverse issue of having the inefficient themes in FW (Vampyres come to mind). I think FW would need much more subtle changes to it in order to balance it out. I usually only see "FW needs this sweeping change" suggestions, but those don't seem like good ideas to me. Smaller changes would be needed to make it balanced, if it gets "balanced" it at all.
     
    Alakhami likes this.
  20. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    FW has much of it's power tied to how strong an opponent's power is, with spells like doom essence drain, decay, etc.

    I still think cancelling the opp bonus would help FW as a whole, considering their current bonus doesn't rely on cancelling the opponent's advantages, it just encourages FW units dying, especially if they have been chipped at.
     

Share This Page