The List; Iconsistancies-Redundacies-OP/UP/Bugs

I've spoken to other members of the community in game about making a list of things that are out of line within' there respective factions, things that aren't quite up to par. Things that are really not needed, things that have been just splashed around.

I'm going to making a list specifically about things in KF; Kormack has said he would do Treefolk for me, and I've had some others say they'd help out. I'd like to this to be 100% honest and unbiased info, I'm going to be posting stuff against our current meta (in KF) and I'd like others to do the same, to help streamline all of our nerf cries into one easy place.

So with that being said have at it, please post with the objective of bettering the game, and not just nerf crying on other factions. Keep it constructive and honest.

~Karmavore
WALL OF TEXT
@Gedden @Sokolov

 

ADDITIONAL LINKS:
http://forums.poxnora.desertowlgames.com/index.php?threads/kf-rebalance-list.3970/page-2#post-57246
http://forums.poxnora.desertowlgames.com/index.php?threads/kormacks-thoughts-on-treefolk-for-the-list-on-general-chat.4147/
http://forums.poxnora.desertowlgames.com/index.php?threads/kf-rebalance-list.3970/
http://forums.poxnora.desertowlgames.com/index.php?threads/what-are-the-best-kf-runes-after-the-revamp-lets-make-a-list.3973/page-2#post-56997
K'thir Forest
First and foremost I'd like to start of with nerfs, cause KF is pretty out of line atm.

Nerfs:

Falconer: OLD*****
He's a great cheap champ, currently the only thing that takes him out of line is Hawk Attack (3)
I'd like to see him lost (r3) and go down to (r1), currently he can reach insane levels of dmg for nothing at all. Base DMG 11 TO 9 (he gets 11 dmg if he's on grass with this nerf) Race Elf, Beast to Race Elf, Falconer also needs a cost increase +5 nora

Falconer* NEW
Is no longer race: beast (Hawk Attacks DMG modifier has been changed 2,3,4 for ranks 1,2,3)


Elven Strategist:OLD******
Before this revamp he was a very underutilized tool, now he's a tactical god.
I'd like to see him lose his +1 spd(6spd TO 5spd) buff (he was 6 before revamp with the option of +1 spd in upgrades.) Remove Teleport 2 from upgrade chain. Add +6 hp upgrade to upgrade tree (like previous version) +6 nora to base.

Elven Strategist* NEW
Teleport 2 instead of Teleport 1 on 2nd ability set

Elven Druid:OLD****
I love the fact that I can play this champion again, but once again he can reach some pretty high levels of dmg. Drop base dmg from 13 TO 10.
Currently Enrage transfers across form (not sure if WAI) but in any case it's clearly out of hand. Remove that feature, and he's a solid champion @ 70 nora.

Elven Druid* NEW
Base dmg to 11 from 13

Starlight Sylph:OLD****
Starshine reads that it gives Majestic to the closest friendly champion for six turns, this is abuse-able by simply reposition your champions to gain both ranks of majestic across all champions. Revert to old starshine.

Starlight Sylph* NEW
Starshine reverted

Elven Shade:OLD*****
She was a big threat before with MA/Startle reaching 14 dmg (7 was her old base + 7 with startle) now she's hitting for 20 dmg each strike granted she lost MA. I'd like to see her lose Startle all together, and gain MA back with a minor nerf to her base dmg 13 TO 10

Elven Shade* NEW
Removed Startle from ability set 1
added multiattack to ability set 1
damage lowered to 11

Gnarlwood TanglefootOLD****
He needs Pariah added back to base - replace flurry with MA3 - increase range from 1-3

Gnarlwood Tanglefoot* NEW
Paraiah added to starting abilities
Ranged increased to 1-3
Flurry replaced with Multiattack 3

Snake Charmer:OLD****
is a bit to efficient atm nora from 59 to 65

Snake Charmer* NEW
Made less efficient


Vashal Quillback:

Far to defensive for my liking at the nora cost he currently is at. Remove Deflect from base/block&dodge to rank1 ADD Defender 3 to base

Woodland Jester:

Not sure why he was given teleport at all, when he has bastion of mobility
Remove Teleport upgrade completely ADD .... (not sure) something flavorfull according to his "jester" status.

Forest Giant:OLD****
Unplayable before, over the top now. Cheap Colossal units shouldnt exist in today game.
Drop Colossal ADD tough 3 / Remove Race: Beast TO Race Elf

Forest Giant*NEW
Is no longer Race: Beast
Is now Class: Brute instead of Class: Warrior



Deadly Tracker:
Used to be somewhere in the 75-78 mark, always considered it a great rune, even at that nora cost. However the meta was different back then and didn't fit into any of my bg's, now @ 67 she's pretty ridiculous. Just increase nora cost back into the mid 70's and call it a day.



Archer Commander:
Well, of course people wised up to the fact that she has improve range, while being thematic and a great boost to what elves already bring to the table I don't see her getting any love from my opponents.. Which is funny, she took a considerable nerf with this update. She's more of a support backline unit than the 8 spd monster she used to be.. But again the meta has shifted.
Remove: Improve Range ADD Rend 1 TO upgrades.
TO BE CONTINUED



Buffs:
I feel most of these are going to be fair; minor nora drops/removing of abilties;

Ash the Bandit Prince:
I ran a Archer bg with UD/KF a while ago with great success, but I think anyone that was running a archer bg with ash knew that he was a huge tempo hit and if found early it was a huge loss losing him, having him at 146 nora @ base now is ludicrous and definitely not worth the risk. He needs a straight up -30 nora hike.

Angel of Restoration:
Currently @ 100 nora, I can't even think about adding her into my BG's
Remove +1 range buff, Nora from 100 to 91. Reason behind this I'd still like her to have an option of using Elite Blade, but also have the option of making her cheaper via taking lesser upgrades (Arial Supremacy/NB(r1)

Angel of Restoration* NEW
is now 3-4 instead of 4-5, and is cheaper for it

Arrowsinger:
She was fairly good before the revamp, now with her tiny HP pool and defensless ability tagged onto her she's not worth including considering champions like Deadly Strider. The rest of her design I love.
Remove Defenseless - ADD - +5 HP

Arrowsinger* NEW
Had health increased to 41 from 37

Dugon, Garu Stalwart.
He was at his best one of the worst 150k's and while all 150k's in this revamp have been hit hugely, he's almost un-runnable. I only use him for the minor buff for power turns.
+2 dmg to base.

Dugon, Garu Stalwart* NEW
now has 10 damage from 8
Is slightly more efficient

Garu Shaman:
He used to be a cheap addition to the garu theme with his heal (r2) and divert options
Now he's a 81 nora unit that dosent and will not see any play. Nora form 81-71 (with divert/healing upgrades (65 without divert))

Gnarlwood Willowind

Currently is a worse version of Gnarlwood Patriarch, Gnarlwood Willowind needs his improve range back to make sense in a treefolk BG.

Occuli Slag:

Currently un-runnable in a meta BG, has no role what so ever.
Remove replicate ADD split
Nora Miner 1 added to upgrades

Outcast the Flane
An easy fix -7 nora

Pox Harbinger

While she is a rarity in this game those that have her currently can't really stomach deploying a 100 nora range 3-6 unit, also just because she is hard to obtain dosent mean she should see play. Drop nora cost to 91

Queen Anaru:
She was butchered aswell, 92 nora for a unit with 8 dmg (falconer says high)
+2 base dmg nora cost remains

Ruthless Enforcer:
Again his dmg is far to low to be viable even within' the Devotee theme.
+3 dmg


Seeker of the Source:
Needs to lose this weird range he was given, revert back to RNG 1-2

Dusk Druid:
I'm honestly baffled that he can turn into a 80+ nora unit for 63. With that being said that's hardly a good design choice, while I think it's cool and flavorful. Id just much rather run a real forest lerper with blitz and all the other goodies..

Revert to old build with Phychic Ping (2)
+4 nora

Epochal Sage:
Haste was his signature ability and granted inside KF it's not needed. Like at all... So with that being said, he's kinda stuck in limbo between somewhat useable (but easily out classed by other Divine Favor units - nora wise and stat wise) and shoebox.. I'd like to see Ally: KF added onto base (prompting +1ap when he does his time bend) giving him some decent HP/DMG rather than being outclassed by every other champ with DF/Premonition


Garu Medium:

Right now I see now reason to run him, granted he provides premonition and a summon that deals addition dmg. But other than that seems like a wasted deploy standalone...
Simple +2 dmg to base / +4 nora
TO BE CONTINUED



Inconsistencies:

Fae Oracles range display is currently wrong it says 4-6 on paper, in game her range is still 3-6.
^this is apparent for many other runes that had their ranges changed.
Archer Commander is also 4-6 display is 3-6 ingame



Redundancies:

There are far to many access to boost (r3) in this faction atm, I think within the beast theme there are 5 champions that have access to this ability, seems a bit weird to me, some of those could easily be stripped for more "personal" abilities.

Same goes with Treefolk to much splashing of Boost 3 not enough flavor.
TO BE CONTINUED

ADDITIONAL LINKS:
http://forums.poxnora.desertowlgames.com/index.php?threads/the-fs-reworks-thread.4031/
Forglar Swamp: I need someone to fill this plz

Nerfs:


Buffs:

Inconsitantcies:

Redundancies:


General Problems:

TO BE CONTINUED

 

ADDITIONAL LINKS
http://forums.poxnora.desertowlgame...ds/balance-and-tweak-suggestions-thread.4005/
http://forums.poxnora.desertowlgames.com/index.php?threads/new-interesting-st-stuff.3938/

Savage Tundra: Brought to you by Stearspike (or Steevo)

Nerfs:

Jakei Starseer Starshine reads that it gives Majestic to the closest friendly champion for six turns, this is abuse-able by simply reposition your
champions to gain both ranks of majestic across all champions. Revert to old starshine.

Strig Warlock (I don't agree by the way so post your thoughts) but some people have voiced concerns over dark favor 3. Lower the option to dark favor 2




Buffs:

Freeze bug keeper can no longer attack so she only acts as a counter summon - Give option to attack for increased nora cost or shorten CD on throw freeze bug.

Aspect of infinities
abilities intensify and mirrored are pointless. It has no attack and those abilities would take over blindfire which is the only use this
unit can have. Let it have blindfire as a normal ability.

Frostfall Vanguard
is a 92 nora cost unit with colossal. If you compare him with a fire giant or Forest giant they are all quite simliar but the latter
units cost 20 less nora making them viable. Have it lose Frost acolyte or/and frost overload to reduce cost.

Vallasser the elder
and I presume other heroes have been turned into their counterparts making them pointless. Give them a different attack element or make them
something else altogether and realease it as a legendary.

Throatrend lonx having beserker 2 takes it to 7 speed and without multi-attack it means it will only be able to attack once making it pointless - Give option for
berserker 3 for extra nora cost.

Angel of Perseverance (and from what I've heard all angels) are too high in nora cost for what it does. Just lower it... say 10 Nora

Savage doombringer is too expensive as are all the doombringers I've heard. Lower it 10 Nora.

Inconsistencies:

Frostfall hydra
is just to expensive and the differences in Nora cost between abilities HAVE to be a mistake. Spellsurge: Snowstorm is 2 Nora cheaper than Spontaneous regeneration and ice eater is 2 more Nora more than it. Spontaneous regeneration is way better than both of them put together and so it seems one or more of these abilities don't seem a fair Nora cost.

Nora beasts
option one upgrade to lose lumbering and gain easy target making it cost an extra 20 Nora seems is pointless. No one would ever do this.



General Problems:













ADDITIONAL LINKS
http://forums.poxnora.desertowlgames.com/index.php?threads/reaction-thread.3906/
http://forums.poxnora.desertowlgame...stions-to-ud-runes-that-missed-the-mark.3964/
http://forums.poxnora.desertowlgames.com/index.php?threads/list-of-champion-what-are-way-too-cheap-compare-to-others.3946/

Underdepths: WRITTEN BY AGIRGIS1


Nerfs:

• Corrupted Cultist , not really played.... but even i can not deny so much power for 54 nora .
• Ember Wasp, well its 49 nora with decent abilities.
• Fire Giant , why they gave him colossal .. i have no idea.... if anything old fire giant was balanced.
• Goblin Gloombringer , i think its globally agreed leech vitality and life siphon has always been too much ... take 1 of the 2 out and decrease nora cost
• Goblin Brute , What?
• NeedleClaw Imp , decrease nora cost , take away rapid attack...... bounty hunter and rapid attack work together too well
• Redcap Twins , why do they have immortal anyway? probably just take immortal out
• Warogg, he is just too strong and too tanky
• Deep elf mercenary , another undercosted champ
• Grundelwulf , why does a 62 nora champ have deepwounds? this is almost as bad as KF's deadly tracker( But still far since that rune is cray)
• Magma Elemental , Under priced
• Deep elf masochist, probably has too much hp with tough and calcify for its nora price
• Goblin dirtbag , slightly underpriced

Buffs:

• Demologist , this rune is pathetic.... He is caught between the role of support and fighter.... costing the same as both combined.
• Captive Lorekeeper , can we please do something with this thing?
• Depths doombringer, 96 nora makes him unable .. he is a good champ, id take away somethings... maybe give him a new role/different set of abilities away from nora gen.
• Korona, Replace Pummel with upgrade option bloodseeker or thrist for battle..... and add battle leader base again.... ( keep in mind she did lose OB)... there might be a better way to handle her but i can't spend too much time thinking on 1 champ while trying to check them all.
• Lower Beast of Shoeul , give him backlash back
• Soulbleeder, over nerfed..... unplayable
• Soulthrister , was the 5 speed really needed? he needs at least 6 ... a decent upgrade path
• Grimilic , the nerf was not needed at all.....he was fine before
• The Spiders that don't have creep and crawl on base all should
• Rip demon alpha , the rip in his name stands for rest in peace ... this guy is just shoeboxed at 96 nora( he was shoeboxed anyway)
• Hekatian bloodguard , is by no means a weak champion.....but.... take away drain and give her bleed and blood tracker instead .... let her be viable in the bleed theme without taking away her signature drive, the range and speed nerf were hard enough....and she is 40 np
• Bok gatekeeper , What is this thing?
• Greaterpitspawn , so bad.... he wasn't playable with 29 dmg , he isn't playable now either ...... im sure a lot of players would appreciate him and all the titans being viable in the meta
• Gahlroonling ( demonic wag) , was overpowered before..... still kind of powerful some would argue, i believe its not really worth playing at 90 nora without deafening aura. Maybe give it back deafening aura since its 90 nora
• Angel of pain , hmm since you insist on over pricing her , can you at least make her ranged like everything other angel?
• Pox Harbinger , well its 100 nora ... doesn't do anything special
• Pit dragon , why? just why? if you gonna price him so high give him back colossal
• Unhinged bok , rarely played when it had charged attack , why would anyone play it now?
• Hookfiend ,was not even op..... just made him unplayable for no reason....... give him back battledrum instead of latch on , and now that you made us choose between pull and grappling pull , can he finally have 6 speed?
• Prince malandur , overpriced
• Deep Elf Monk , overpriced
• Nefari messenger , overpriced

Bonus: Stitched

• Sarinda can't use eradicate anymore if she wants to play the theme effectively
• Stitched first lost a lot.... they took away ping , they took away death pact , they took away 1 recon option and -2 def ( -1 recon isnt bad tho)
• Stitched has no detect.... we can not even use ping to detect anymore
• Stitched Tyrant Over-priced
• Stitchling , Needs nerf
• Stitched anathema took a massive hit for no good reason

Inconsistancies:


Redundancies:

General Problems:

• With the change to make UD more melee based and cut off most of the ranged , UD has become solely a early game force .... and lost most of its late game potential.
• I did not list a lot of undercosted champions.....but this problem is game wide... every faction has a problem with undercosted champions.

• UD has no good way to deal with new Nokhan do.....as our only stun is through a attack.
• There are things like nefari reaper i don't know what to do about, they have a low nora cost...but they don't do anything other then some avg fighting.... which is powerful , but not OP.....and at the same time not balanced.
• Can we have a demon who can shatter ?

 

ADDITIONAL LINKS:

Forsaken Wastes (Provided by h0spy)

FW

Buffs:
1. I would probably say all heroes in FW need a slight nora decrease because for over 100 nora they are not runnable what so ever.
2. Haunting spirit: He lost ghost, and I have no idea why...
3. Eye of Serkan: For it's 88 nora cost it should not have 38 hp and 10 damage stats. Even with sibling out those stats are not worth the 176 nora cost.
4. Lich Magistrate (Czar): Having no forms to heal even on his upgrades makes him a worthless unrunnable 87 nora champ.
5. Soul Siren: Needs to get warcry back.

Nerfs:
1. Collection of souls: For a 55 nora cost he gains max hp way too quickly.
2.Crossbone: He was already strong in skllies, now he's ridiculously stronger and probably even a good auto include in a good stuff FW bg. It really needs to lose Impaling strike and maybe lower his damage by 1 or 2.
3. Dusk Creeper: Increase it's nora cost and remove soul collection. Improve range on 99% of FW champs is good enough.
4. Ethreal Soldier: Needs a slight nora increase because it's too efficient currently.
5. Fleshblight Zombie: For a cooldown of approximately 4-5 turns it does not need 71 base hp, perhaps tone it down to 55 or so.
6. Lost Queen: Similar problem to which Dusk Creeper has, it should not have regal presence which works in 99% of FW champs.
7. Mysian Lamia: Remove Soul Collection and perhaps give it a slight nore decrease as compensation for it losing that ability. (This one is a kind a buff and nerf suggestion)
8. Risen Moga: Needs to lose some damage, 11 on a 44 nora champ seems awfully strong.
9. Timmothy The Vile: Why does it still have 7 range, and why does it still have one of if not the strongest swarm abilities in the game.
10. Soul Collector: No unit should have soul collection, dead eater and boon of the dead, it makes it impossible to beat FW while this champ is out just because of the ridiculous amount of nora he gets every-time a champ dies. Not to mention that dead eater should not be on any unit that can collect nora globes from range.

Bugs:
1. Corpse A pult should not be throwing 55 hp units -_-
2. Lost Queens final word: It seems to kill champs from damage that occurs from not attack forms like auras.

General problems:
The main problem I see in FW currently is a combination of the low cool downs, the mass soul collection and the fact that unholy tomb is still how it was before revamp, they seem to just control the game by collecting every nora globe possible while they generate much more nora than you as well. Oh and domination is probably still a massive concern, not so much now due to most champs not being worth the nora cost but still those kinda instakill spells are not good for the game.

 

I have a thread to collect discussions about ST balance and twicks. It doesn't covers bugs though.

http://forums.poxnora.desertowlgame...ds/balance-and-tweak-suggestions-thread.4005/

 

http://forums.poxnora.desertowlgames.com/index.php?threads/kf-rebalance-list.3970/page-2#post-57246 is an ongoing thread about KF. Subjects recently brought up include Tanglefoot's extreme power and Woodmarshal Druid's general bugginess.

 

Good stuff Goyo I'll keep the link in the rest of the info. Remember the more opinions the better.

 

http://forums.poxnora.desertowlgames.com/index.php?threads/reaction-thread.3906/
http://forums.poxnora.desertowlgame...stions-to-ud-runes-that-missed-the-mark.3964/
This are from the ud forums but the second one needs added upon the first is the kneejerk thread.

Also there is a very good discussion on some mods for the new Jyx in the thread below
http://forums.poxnora.desertowlgames.com/index.php?threads/jyx-rework.4000/
mostly this post
Jyx the Shadesworn (GabrialQ)
Path 1: rapid attacks 3 / execute / manic
Path 2: Strike / corruption / hostile
Attack: physical
Soul siphon
Amphibious
Split hero

 

So the layout has more or less been put into place, if you feel like contributing to this, post links and I'll put them in the respective factions, otherwise

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD SEND ME A Firking POXMAIL
Don't want to clog up this with single "nerf here, buff there" I want compiled lists..

Send them to me via poxmail. I'll be sure to add it into this post quickly .

 

Good effort, agree on all fronts. I'll see if I can come up with a nice SP list, but someone more experienced that me is probably in a better position to judge.

 

While rank dictates being "familiar" or skilled within a specific faction. Any and all opinions are welcome, I just want a lot of information streamlined for Gedden. So the more opinions the better, just send me a list via poxmail.

http://forums.poxnora.desertowlgame...p-impressions-and-feedback-wall-of-text.4140/ this is a good example of the depth im looking for.


FORMAT YOUR LISTS LIKE THIS PLEASE

FACTION: X
Nerfs:
Buffs:
Inconsistencies:
Redundancies:
General Problems:

 

Make that "needs Pariah OR replace Flurry." MA3 doesn't warrant Pariah. I'm fine with him getting MA3 and staying free of Pariah.

The loss of Flurry could afford him a damage increase as well. There is a big difference between the damage potential of Flurry and MA3.

 

Fantastic work here. I would personally add Deadly Tracker onto the nerf list though. Simply remove deep woulds from base I think. Having range 6 deep wounds on a champ with 7 speed and leap 3 for 70 nora is rather over the top.

 

Hey Karmavore, I will be sticking bugs in the ST suggestions thread now.

EDIT: Do you want me to post in here instead?

 

I know this has already been said before, but hopefully it'll actually get heard here. Corpse-a-pult is still spawning full HP zombies.

Frostwill Quiver costing 10 nora is definitely under priced.

Kanen Scavenger's upgrade path, Assimilate and Forage, is not activating with soul collection.

I'll keep editing when I discover more.

 

Post in here I suppose, it'll make things easier in the end.

 

Starshine bug is hilarious because I'm pretty sure they were trying to nerf it. There was really no need to change that ability.

 

Dragons/150ks/Diplomats/ have lost their unique clauses. Currently watching Heajmac vs Caine, x2 Icesnaps....

 

ST

Freeze Bug Keeper

• His basic attack is missing. S4ndm4an suggests you can keep it as is with a propper cost reduction.​

Jakei Starseer

• Starshine gives Magnific everytime a unit enter it's range, and stacks to Magnific (2). The buff last 6 turns outside it's range. Dunno what of these is intended.​

 

It's worth noting (since I saw it in a few suggestions posted) that I'm pretty sure I remember DOG saying that they were against having stat changes as upgrades.

Also, for general bugginess Creep and Crawl broke again. You can't deploy any units that have it.