The old skill > new guys debate.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by BurnPyro, Feb 12, 2015.

  1. BurnPyro

    BurnPyro Forum Royalty

    Something that always pops up when talking about how good someone is, is how their trash compared to the old guard anyway.

    Sure TinyDragon is great, but Kithros would whoop him. And yeah karmavore is dope, but kthx would school him. Insert comparisons with Algalon/shazara, sinwind, Ryvirath.

    These players were on another level. But as they aren't around anymore, how do we know if someone might surpass them? Could competition not have gotten more fierce? Could balance be so significantly different?

    And a follow-up: why have all these gods of the game decided to leave with seemingly no interest to return? (save sinwind and his army in africa)

    I'm interested to read your response.
     
  2. Karmavore

    Karmavore MEDIUMALLTIME

    Interesting thread. As to why they've left, I can only speculate but I'd imagine it's the same reason any person would retire from something, they've either done it for so long that they've grown tired of being "the best" and would just rather move on OR alternatively, there's nothing beyond being the best, their ego's where quenched and they've moved onto the next target to dominate.

    I would love it if all of these players would come back, It would really freshen up the top 100 and would breathe new life into the competitive scene. Watching/Playing against players like Kithros/Shazara was always a treat for me. But honestly, there's really no comparison to the skill they possessed, players like DevilsWrath/TinyDragon are great in their own respects. They're consistent in winning, but they where never really the pioneers of skill. Playing someone like Ryvirath/Algalon was just a whole other world, Bane Shift even watching their games could pick up your heart-beat. I think s a huge difference was simply, just they way they played. TinyDragon just runs the most efficient Bane Shift possible to win, and Ryvirath could beat you with sporgil.
     
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  3. Molosse

    Molosse I need me some PIE!

    I'm pretty sure Ryv left because he felt that he wasn't... I don't know, rewarded enough (?) for his input into design and balance.

    As for the rest, having not seen many of those players play, or at least to know how they played, I can't comment on respective skill.
     
    mortal ix likes this.
  4. Revengercm

    Revengercm I need me some PIE!

    Yeah I miss Kithros. Best time to see LL play.
     
  5. BurnPyro

    BurnPyro Forum Royalty

    Partly, yes. He got annoyed with the devs. He also told me he had less spare time because med school and grew bored of Pox.
     
  6. Cydna

    Cydna Forum Royalty

    mmcnally was the best Poxnora player ever.
     
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  7. Agirgis1

    Agirgis1 Forum Royalty

    Cool discussion, but I'd love to know if anyone got to watch these top tier players in their early days pre 1000s of games

    We're they just always good, or when did they really start being seen as great


    Time practice vs pure talent

    Edit: also do you think greats need to play all the factions ?
     
  8. Ujelly

    Ujelly I need me some PIE!

    smoking88 ftw!
     
  9. JaceDragon

    JaceDragon I need me some PIE!

    Frely
     
  10. Agirgis1

    Agirgis1 Forum Royalty

    was not even good , just chop block abuse
     
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  11. JaceDragon

    JaceDragon I need me some PIE!

    Indeed.

    Frely
     
  12. Sealer0

    Sealer0 I need me some PIE!

    Why they left?

    It might be hard to swallow for many, but games (especially computer games) have lifespan. Poxnora have far exceeded its own.
     
  13. Markoth

    Markoth Lord Inquisitor

    Sinwind and his 49 consecutive wins while at rank 1 was pretty crazy. UD was pretty srong atm but regardless it was pretty amazing.
     
  14. Baskitkase

    Baskitkase Forum Royalty

    Well skill really comes about in this game via repetition. Karma has always been good, but he's continuing to play so he's going to elevate his game. So maybe Bob used to pwn Karma back in the day but Karma has worked on his game and could possibly compete with bob's old performances with his current performances.

    To me, it really doesn't matter. I don't so much care about who used to play and what that means, the thing that's currently devaluing rank is the fact that not ENOUGH good player are playing. Where you used to have to fight as hard to stay in top 100 as you do now in the top 20, it is just dumb.

    Additionally, balance is just atrocious and it hasn't gotten better, it's just gotten different. Balance may never be achieved so that means that possibly, no matter how good you are with your faction, the highest ranking players will be that same level of good, but have access to all factions (or most) and be someone less skilled that the factionist, but more versitile in being able to deploy whats most powerful at the moment. Probs goes to those as well though when they uncover combos and synergies that were previously dormant. You know, when everyone says "yeah duh, we all knew about Armory and Recycle" but they really hadn't ever used it and quickly ran out to play it.
     
  15. Baskitkase

    Baskitkase Forum Royalty

    ollawl02l u trash compairt to old pepul.
     
  16. Ragic

    Ragic I need me some PIE!

    the skilled left the game because too many unskilled left the game first. skilled players take their rank seriously and its hard to take rank seriously when there are only a few players playing. like it or not competitive games need a critical mass of scrubs. the games complexity and cost (both factors of the tcg business model) is what drove the majority of players away. like baskit said, they can only afford to maintain one faction but lack of balance makes that a hard path to high rank. and the never ending expansion cycle and crummy trading options made it hard to keep up even within one faction. So most of the scrubs left and the skilled left soon after. And the numbers aren't being replaced with new players because the game is far more bloated and complex (tcg model again) now than it used to be. its an unsustainable business model unless you have set rotations. and pox cant support set rotations. why? because rotating would gut themes. and weve learned from the last revamp that gutting themes does not help the game in any way.

    ill tell what DIDNT drive anyone away, and that's the lack of a good tutorial! all that work on NUX was fine but not really where the focus should have been. gutting the ability creep would have been fine if it was done intelligently (it wasn't). reducing the number of abilities would have been fine if that was the goal but it wasn't. they just wanted to hit the reset button again and the ability creep is still happening.

    ill never stop saying this. The TCG business model is killing this game because its a strategy game not a tcg. WHEN are you going to get that?
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2015
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  17. OriginalG1

    OriginalG1 I need me some PIE!

    I think people just grow up and decide to work on time management.
     
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  18. Jib

    Jib Better-Known Member

    top 200 used to mean you were good, not you were barely able to hold a positive w/l ratio

    old players of old are considered better because of the pool, not relative skill of the current top players...

    who are trash anyway

    j/k guys its skillz and not about farming rare league
     
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  19. Pixyrus

    Pixyrus Forum Royalty

    First off, one can not debate such a topic, because back in the days of sinwind, kthx, and all the other old time greats, Pox was a different game. When I say 'different', I mean runes were quite different. I mean, I can't remember runes with such crazy abilities as they have now. And with all the new combinations and themes nowadays, it is hard to judge ones skill from the past Pox in the new Pox. But if I had to choose which 'grouping' of people are better at the game, it would have to go to the oldies. In todays Pox, there are far more methods to win a game than before. Which makes it easier to win games because of the greater chances of winning... (if that makes any sense at all)

    In the old Pox, the runes were very basic and simple. But now, with all the new abilities and combinations, 1 rune can do a lot of things. Which means the old players of Pox would have to use their abilities correctly, position wisely, and think a few turns ahead. But now, if you move a unit to the wrong space, there are a Bane Shift ton of ways you can make up for it. "Opps, I was 10 HP short of killing that unit. I'll just use Protection to keep my unit alive longer", is an example. You can make up for misplays, but back then I can't remember runes that ever did such a thing. I mean, just think about it. If you were back in old Pox (and new what the 'eater' abilities were), could you ever imagine such a spell that can give that ability for just a bit of nora? No, which would make playing back in old Pox much harder, and will require much more brain power than today.

    So again, I believe that the older players of Pox Nora are much better than any "new guys".

    My list of best players ever would be this (including fields such as; creative, skill, and personal opinion), in no particular order:

    • Ryv
    • Tiny
    • Hash
    • iPox
    • shazara
    • Devils
    • Red
    • Smoking88
    • Reaper
    • MaxCyrus
    • BURNPYRO
    • BURNPYRO
    • BURNPYRO
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2015
  20. heroex7777

    heroex7777 Lord of ST

    you'd have to compare them in real time. If someone started playing again how would he do against a top player if the factions were balanced again and they had some time to relearn the game. That being said, there is always a best, be it 1/10000 or 1/10 so skill needs to be taken in perspective. Being rank 1 used to mean something but now the ranking system is messed up. Going 18-1 is worse than going 4-0. That's why I stopped trying to hold rank 1, because I played too many games to hold rank 1 easily while others were just playing a few a day.

    Balance is also important to if someone is actually good. I remember when Icesnap just came out and you could double soulfrost and it used to give 1 nora per damage done, I held rank 1 over tiny/devils/the rest of them for about a week when it used to matter. But that didn't mean anything because icesnapsoulfrost op.

    Consistently good is the most important thing. It shows that they can adapt and that they can continue learning. No one trick ponies

    cough kf

    I think this swings both ways, there are more offensive/defensive things to think about now. Counters the counters of the counters. The old days were simpler and you got punished harder for your mistakes. I think that this actually helped the noobs more that mistakes got more forgiving. Top tier players these days make less mistakes but they aren't that much ahead by the end of the game. Where as in the old days you could go a whole game without losing a champion if you played it well.

    also i don't think it's the winrate that matters. It's who you win against. My winrate used to be 52% but went up to 60% since I started again a month ago or so. During that time my winrate was probably 80-90% to get it up.

    Back in the day when I beat tiny it was like i killed a god. Because there was no such thing as a draw win, each match was straight skill.

    These days, I beat the top 5 players or lose to the top 5 players, both sides could say eh. Draw win. Actually no, i have no draw wins. only i can say that about kf :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 12, 2015

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