The Unholy Tomb dilemma: Tempo and Nora Gen

Thank you.

 

I was just giving my opinion on UT in this thread, but if we're talking backlash:

Backlash in it's current form allows most forms of nora gen to at least get their nora worth back. Your backlash also needs to be out for a great number of turns to actually make a difference. For example, ancient implications works for 6 turns, which would require the UT to gen 20*2=40hp (1 dmg per 2 nora) 40/3=13,3, rounded up 14. There would have to be 14 champs out on your part to use an ancient implications (35 nora) if only used for the backlash to kill UT. I think we can agree that 14 champs would be quite unrealistic in most games. So you would need 2 ancient implications (or chain them off cd) and have 7 champs out. Then we're looking at a 70 nora investment (again, 7 champs is still pretty big). While the tomb is allowed to gen for 3 rounds + 7 rounds on cd + 3 rounds for the second implications. It's probably payed itself off at that point. Sure implications has other uses too, but this is to demonstrate that the new UT and the new backlash greatly favor UT. I could do some math on other forms of backlash, but it would all depend on how good the actual champ is.

As dmr also mentioned, the 20hp on the UT feels very strong. It takes 2 attack or 2 AoEs to kill and can withstand backlash for a very long time. All of this combined with the fact that it's sitting behind your shrine makes it quite impossible in most games to kill. Now if it had say 12 hp, like tome, it would give backlash a bigger chance and some AoEs could kill it in one go (I mean, you'll still pay more than 35 for your AoE and you need spell presence).

If you're not comfortable buffing backlash, which I would think guessing from your reaction and the fact that it was nerfed in the first place, reducing the hp on the UT might make it less of a 'hard to counter nora gen & loss of life machine'.

I hope you found this thread and post interesting and constructive to the ongoing discussion of the Unholy Tomb.

 

Instead of changing backlash, why not have another ability that isn't specific to nora gen that is able to damage relics from afar. Something along the lines of Jab, but targeting the relic furthest from the deployed champ.

 

@Sokolov

Even being a thoughtless deploy, I think that UT is in a much better place right now - 25 ticks to break even plus 2 Nora per extra tick led to a counter or lose scenario, while 35 ticks to break even plus 1 Nora per extra tick does not come even close to snowballing.

If anything, I think now people will be able to gauge how globe denial was the major definer in many x/FW matches...

 

Sorry, the 80% the mid games turns around only 6 champions, 3 are yours. The games are very fast. Rarely the opponent reach 4 champions for conquest the mid font, if the mid font was conquested, is autolose, Unholy tomb no will be guaranteed for still the battle.

 

One minor correction on a technical point of Burn's post: Ancient Implications has an 8 turn duration, not 6, which means 4 ticks of Backlash on Tomb et al, rather than 3. Doesn't change the math a whole lot, but for the sake of accuracy --

 

Oops, my bad.

That would change the match to 20*2=40 40/4=10 champs out to kill the tomb with one Ancient Implications. Still quite unrealistic in most games. But better, yes.

 

Yeah, that probably won't happen on a small map or with most BGs, but someone using NK Guide, or particular BGs like Beasts with Furbull mother, can more realistically hit that number. (Still rough on standard goodstuff, though)

Edit: Burn, how much have you played with UT after the change, and how has it felt to you? How does that compare to your experience playing against it? Not looking for a particular response, just eager for more information and to keep this thread on topic.

 

If I understand this correctly, the problem with Unholy Tomb and other Nora Generation is that it provides a reward at a relatively low risk.
Unholy Tomb used to be high reward / low risk, and it got nerfed, so it is medium reward / low risk now.

The current debate is about reducing the reward further, or by increasing the potency of Backlash.
So the current goal is to find a risk/reward-equilibrium.

Since Nora Generation tends to be problematic in general, another option would be to take the bull by the horns and
slightly increase the potency for Nora Generation in all factions (i.e. by adding Nora Miner 1 to several Champions across the board),
but at the same time add Backlash to more Champions.

 

Now this is an interesting line of thought...

 

Really, it's not. Because you'd create two problems: 1) splits to get a "nora miner" theme, and 2) nora mines making 10-12 nora per turn.

 

Thank you.

I'll elaborate it a little further. Currently, we are asking: Why would we run Nora Generation?
If it is high reward / little risk, it is too strong. If it is low reward / high risk, it is too weak. If it is low reward / low risk, it is boring.
And only if it is high reward / high risk, it may be interesting.

How do we increase the risk? By making Backlash stronger.

But what if we look at Backlash the same way: Why would we run Backlash?
It is a sandbag if the opponent runs no Nora Generation. It is a medicore or good counter if the opponent runs Nora Generation.
So it used to be high risk / low reward. Sok has reduced its cost, so that now it is medium or low risk / low reward.

My suggestion might go in a bold direction, but in order to make Backlash worth running, it must actually counter something.
If it counters something that reads: "Well, I deploy it if they don't run a counter, and else, well, no harm done -- I simply won't deploy it", it will remain a problematic ability. If we increased the amount of Runes it counters by adding many mini-Noragenerators, it would actually reduce the risk and increase the reward.

So, as paradoxical as it may sound, I think the best way to handle Nora Generation is to make it more common.

 

Why don't make UT font powered and lower is price to 30???