Theme Overview: Barbarians

Discussion in 'Ironfist Stronghold' started by Thbigchief, Feb 8, 2015.


Would you rather get ....

  1. Dunk't by incite rage spam?

  2. Rekt by Bastion shenanigans?

  3. Outplayed by shirtless sex machines? ... that have a fun balanced theme

  1. Thbigchief

    Thbigchief I need me some PIE!


    - I meant to post something sooner just been held up. Here are my thoughts on Warchief and possible future directions for champ/spell/relic/equip based synergy. Since making completely new mechanics and runes is more time consuming so I just used what we already have.

    - Warchief hopping situation: The jumping at least goes with the playstyle i'd prefer in allows for multiple font battles and some surprise solo skirmish power on hops. The devil is in the details...the base ability granted should be instant gratification and the turn timer one more theme reliant .... Things "like" surge (bravery to balance?), aid: defense, bulwark (if tweaked , currently awful) should have to earned by waiting and surviving... Either way not theme drowning or "all or nothing" mechanics.


    Blood clan : This champion has Enrage 2? and after X turns gains Protective (or Bravery)
    Stone clan : This champion has Bulwark: barbarian or calcify (bulwark needs a tweak as an ability though, since its terrible) and after X turns gains Aid: defense
    Storm clan : This champion has Bastion of Mobility and after X turns gains Scramble

    - I would prefer Barbs got some other synergies in play before we committed to a power level for the "new" Warchief mechanic. Things like Pride of Sarng. spell could be made relevant and perhaps barb clauses added to other spells, relics, equips...Some fun ideas to brainstorm with:


    Pride of Sarng. - Change to "All friendly barbarians gain protective and perseverance for 3 turns...this spell is hidden until triggered" (a bit of the old flavor of barbs mixed with some surprise factor they are sorely missing...its pretty linear right now)

    Glorious Charge - ".... friendly barbarians also gain crazed charger (or break the line not sure)"

    Instill Panic - ".... if closest friendly champion is a barbarian enemy champion also becomes frightened"

    Last Stand - "....if target champion is a barbarian it also gains Vindictive"

    Strength of stone - "....This spell refunds 3 nora for each friendly barbarian effected up to a maximum of 15 nora"

    Tales of valor - "... if target champion is a barbarian it also gains Immortality"

    Valor - "...friendly barbarians are affected for 3 turns instead of 2 turns"


    Celestial spear - Just add barbarians as triggers...relic is still meh but hey it would be something.

    Rallying Flag - "...if friendly barbarian is deployed it also gains Initiative 1" This relic also needs to do something static or else its a dead slot mid to late game.


    Granite Bracers - "...equipped barbarians also gain Barbaric Assault"

    Mail of "Barbs" (herpderp) - just cuz

    Sunder Axe - "...friendly equipped barbarians also gain (weary or debilitate ...dependent on balance)

    Wildeye Bracers - "...If equipped on a barbarian it also gains Hostile and Aggressive"

    - Just some spit-balling to help you sok... These ideas should not be taken as a suggestion as a total package...but merely some directions to go with alternative synergy vs racial. I hope this provokes some good ideas and feel free to criticize and min/max these suggestions. And also keep in mind the sheer power of "incite rage" and might need a look at for the future health of the theme if some other issues get sorted out.

    p.s. On a side note, barbaric assault bothers me. I can't figure out if O.Assault is overcosted and subsequently B.Assault is by default or the fact that its an upgrade choice that will never be chosen or that it's another proximity wonky trigger. Also where da "stealth" barb unit at sok?
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  2. darkpally5

    darkpally5 I need me some PIE!

    Excellent ideas from an excellent man
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  3. Tarth

    Tarth Devotee of the Blood Owl

    I'm sure you have your reasoning, but can I ask a few simple questions? Im just going to go ahead and do it because.. well internet rhetorical questions.

    Whats the current issue with the Pride of Sarnghaver? It is extremely powerful as is, and very tactically useful in multiple scenarios. On demand hidden assault for 3 round, and the choice of 3 turns to give IMMUNITY to all melee damage can not be underestimated for offensive or defensive positioning as well as simply stalling. It works with large groups or small groups, early/mid/late game and it comes with built in drawbacks to help balance the power of the spell. Which, are easily worked around or mitigated through the use of the spell or champion/rune abilities.

    as for the rest, its hit or miss for me on each but at least you put thought into them. Notably, the ones I like or the concepts I like are Sunder Axe getting a barb specific mechanic ( though not a fan of the stated options), Rallying flag gaining a passive effect ( though I would simply give it rallying cry 3 instead of your suggestions to simulate old font bonus), last stand and tales of valor getting a barbarian clause ( unsure but nothing against your suggestions).

    SO really I want to know why on your changes, and what you want the theme to actually do.
  4. Thbigchief

    Thbigchief I need me some PIE!

    - My issues with pride other then it not being desireable to me or generally not popular, is based simply on the abilities granted. I rarely need both Resolute or it's typically a sandbagged situation...Im either using it for assault or resolute not both. A melee hate power is also not one I would choose since if my opponent is choosing to fight me frequently in melee situations I am typical in my preferred scenario...along the lines of UD. So a ranged hate ability would be more appealing. Now assault is quasi-ranged hate and resolute is melee hate...again the issue is two different tools for different scenarios and rarely both occurring at the same time.

    - The actual abilities granted from my suggestion are a throwback to the old racial, which got thrown out with the bath water. I am not against some alternatives that have more synergy together. Perseverance and protective have lots of synergy and flavor is the main reason I chose them...punishing enemies for attacking and killing.

    - The reason for the rest of the suggestions were to spark some discussion and brainstorm how we can add some internal champ/spell/relic/equipment based synergy instead of a heavy handed new racial being jammed in to "fix" barbarians. I would greatly prefer we have several things that are implemented that increase the theme's usefulness as opposed to a singular racial as a cure all.

    - Lets pretend all my suggestions were perfectly balanced... do you prefer not to have clauses added to already existing runes? or add synergy in another way?
  5. Tarth

    Tarth Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Hmm I find the stated options of a range hate or melee hate ability to be one of the pros of the spell, its flexibility. Despite melee being a preferred arena for your champions, being able to leverage it with impunity aka resolute+ assault stopping them from counter hitting you on a over extension to get into position and assault punishing them for backing away out of your advance is something I think the lower staying power of the barbarians would enjoy. Add to its ability to lock down enemy range, or counter hard to deal with units/heavy hitters over the course of the duration (i.e. cycling in one or two blocker champions with resolute up as turn by turn goes. We have 3 rounds to tick resolute after all.) to be splendid design. I mean they have to make a choice, stay here where I can not attack well, or retreat and take 1+ free hits from high damage units. To each their own though.

    No I agree that clauses added to carefully selected and new runes is a great idea. Just wanting you to defend your position to see why you picked what you did.
  6. Thbigchief

    Thbigchief I need me some PIE!

    - Yeah thanks for the response. I mainly chose what I chose to make changes more likely to happen. I would prefer to invent runes and abilities but I'm realistic about how things work and its more likely to be feasible if we use what we have ready to implement now.

    - @Sokolov I think if we chose 2-ish spells , one relic and one equipment to include a barbarian clause. Then tweaked 2-3 marque barbarians....Maybe Bastion the avenger (hes just a gimmick beat stick) ,Barbarian guardian, Zedin, Barbarian Druid (Druids kit is awesome dont get me wrong..just could be a lower rarity theme glue rune) ... And by tweak I do not mean buff...lateral or even vanilla loss of power in favor of theme glueing attributes.

    - After those small changes you could then decide on warchief so that the racial doesnt fill the void prematurely and become a crutch as opposed to a flavorful icing on the top of the barb sundae of a theme.
  7. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Bumping this thread to get more feedback from IS players re: Barbarians, and also to say that I will probably not touch Bastion with the Hero update because he's basically the Barb hero so I'd prefer to do it all together.
  8. Markoth

    Markoth Lord Inquisitor

    Will he be losing Paladin?
  9. Thbigchief

    Thbigchief I need me some PIE!

    1) Bastion should lose paladin and go full on barb synergy

    2) Euan keep paladin and add paladin upgrade line synergy

    3) Talgar keep paladin Maybe BUT add brute and add drunken upgrade line synergy

    - Then we have at least attempted to streamline some heroes toward a specific theme without Totally pigeonholing them
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  10. Anotherblackman

    Anotherblackman I need me some PIE!

    @sok Don't listen to either of these guys... Keep paladin on them all.

    They are the main reason IS is bad.
  11. Dresnar20365988

    Dresnar20365988 Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Barbs are boring. The racial isn't fun or interesting. It's not on enough champs being the major problem.

    I have laid out changes several times in the past that would make them fun and competitive.
  12. Thbigchief

    Thbigchief I need me some PIE!

    - I feel you, but I've not hurt paladins bro-seph. In fact SL and IS suffer from ...herpderp all the heroes are in the same theme. You really think Bastion having Paladin is important? I need him to help barbs...
  13. Anotherblackman

    Anotherblackman I need me some PIE!

    Do classes have nora cost? No they don't as far as I know. Changing him from class paladin would be like changing arch-angel of almara from paladin into a warrior. Warriors from heaven= totally freaking paladin.
    How I would change bastion the avenger:

    race:Angel, Barbarian
    class: paladin
    11 damage base
    range 1-2
    7 speed
    1 defense base
    hp: 55

    Battle leader
    combo attack rend
    combo attack drain

    tree 1: multi attack 1, brutality
    tree 2: batttle harden 1, 3

    Instead of being some gimmick Combo attack devastate tank rune I made him into a specialized beater. He is clean up crew or is a defining the fighting turn by turn with combo attack rend and heals from drain. He snow balls the theme and himself in a steady motion instead of might of IF instakill 2x.

    I'd price him around 87-93 base but thats just me trying to compete with juya the BS.
  14. Thbigchief

    Thbigchief I need me some PIE!

    - How does this help paladins or barbarians ...other then being a meta beat stick? Brutality makes it pretend to give synergy? I'm trying to help themes by having theme enablers not crutches. If paladins need all three heroes to thrive then they need additional help and balancing not just 3 heroes to stay glued in the BG for it to succeed.

    - Races don't cost...but they have balance implications...why not make it a beast, human, dwarf as well ? It costs nothing right? Because its dumb to do so. Angel barb is fine because neither has a hero associated with it (angels aren't really a thing yet but I can see leaving angel)...but he doesn't need to be a paladin I don't care if he stays but it serves no purpose other then glarping themes together.
  15. Anotherblackman

    Anotherblackman I need me some PIE!

    First imma address your race comment, when I was talking about class...
    Race's and classes do have balance implications, however they don't have a nora cost. There are no units in the game with hunter paladin or anti paladin but there is TONS of synergy with IS via paladin. Its a direct nerf at that point to the champion. Then you want to give it warrior. So its a double nerf cause warrior foe exist on alot of champions. This is on a champion you are "proposing buffs for."(exactly why I said don't let you spew these ideas some are good but most impact negative)

    It gives what Barbarians as a theme need as a whole, global damage buff whenever he kills something and mass champion clean up. Barbs are constantly trading turn by turn via range and their beaters die extra fast if you aren't a kill ahead when then real fighting starts. Most have 10 base damage, no dot's, meaning they on average do about 8-9 damage on hit vs a theme that is "balanced" like skeezick who gen more AP and damage from their rune dock + warcry and surge+ passive prevent damage from being reduced and that means they get mowed down by themes of this power level.

    Rampage+ battle leader is powerful. Powerful enough to be a hero mechanic itself imo and as a comeback faction we could use this to advantage.
  16. Dresnar20365988

    Dresnar20365988 Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Removing paladin is a nerf. No other way around that.
  17. Thbigchief

    Thbigchief I need me some PIE!

    - What we are not acknowledging is that Bastion is getting "REWORKED" with barbarians according to Sok think bigger then "qq I can't get commander to trigger on bastion"..????? who cares the hero needs streamlining and actual use in the theme he is designed for...not just meta power to splash in your cute decks.
  18. Anotherblackman

    Anotherblackman I need me some PIE!

    Sokolov reworked griffens.

    You see how they are right now.

    But yeah you just are being blunt. Pretty much no real reason to remove class paladin other than "people like thebigcheif thought it was a good idea like it give him Free nora off herp a frikeen derp"

    That is how runes are destroyed.
  19. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I designed them originally. And I reworked them.

    And yea, I see how they are right now. Easier to play with and more competitive. Huh. How about that?
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  20. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Probably at some point, yea. It depends on whether he ends up as a "Barb hero" or not.

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