Theme Overview: Barbarians

Discussion in 'Ironfist Stronghold' started by Thbigchief, Feb 8, 2015.


Would you rather get ....

  1. Dunk't by incite rage spam?

  2. Rekt by Bastion shenanigans?

  3. Outplayed by shirtless sex machines? ... that have a fun balanced theme

  1. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I think that's a pretty cool build, but doesn't have much to do with being a Paladin or not. That part depends on which theme you want him to play in.

    But that build would also be 119 nora at base, which is about 10 nora higher than Juya, so that would be about ~30 nora discount to get him to your price. Still, I like the direction you with it. Not sure if I want to leave him as a Paladin still (because I think having 2 Paladin heroes is plenty).
  2. Anotherblackman

    Anotherblackman I need me some PIE!

    If you are taking anything from this:
    Rampage+battle leader+ multi attack in replace of devastate. No exceptions.

    also define "plenty." In the context you used it in you act like there some sort of limit you determine when balancing things that has to deal with synergy? If so remove race demon from klizik since she is obviously made specifically for spider bg's. Remove race beast from azaran he is obviously lonx.

    Oh wait that would hurt their potential in decks, wouldn't it. Same applies to bastion. And if it doesn't, HUGE bias from my point of view.

    Last I checked UD has ways to use all the synergy of being a demon with their hero champions. Why is IS not allowed the same?

    Same with ST and beast(gnark even has synergy with yeti)

    And SL and dragon.

    and FW and undead.

    That is 4 other factions that have versatile deck building synergy with all of their heros. Why is IS the red headed step child in this regard?
  3. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    So the reason practically everything has Demon in UD is because they have a history of runes that function off Demon. This is a similar problem to FW's Undead stuff. Both of these will take time to fix, but it is something I'd like to do and is also something players of both factions typically support.

    Gnark is a silly example because, quite honestly, no one likes his second upgrade line being that way. Most ST players see him as a Lonx hero and want to keep him that way.

    Azaren having Beast base race is mostly to do with the way Protective works, and he is literally a Beast hero, and has little to do with Lonx theme decks. He just happens to be a Lonx in lore.

    Same with SL. Many SL players would LOVE for their heroes to not ALL be Dragon heroes, and I might be doing something about that if I can.

    Interesting too that you don't mention the Dwarf + Paladin Heroes in IS. But I guess those don't count even tho Barb + Paladin is super important for some reason.

    So no, IS is not the red herring. You just have a persecution complex.
    Last edited: May 1, 2015
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  4. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Those are probably doable within the price range if we leave off the Combo Attacks. But the CAs add 10+ nora.

    But maybe I will replace Rampage with something cheaper. Because I like exceptions when someone tries to dictate to me "no exceptions." It's just more fun that way.


    To get it back on topic, @Anotherblackman's suggested build would make him a fairly basic beater type of champ for Barbs/Paladins (tho obviously with a higher ceiling than most). Do people prefer that over making him more synergistic to Barbarians specifically? I am ok with either direction personally.

    Actually, since I do dig that design direction, I could always put that build on another champ, say, the Crusader perhaps?
  5. Anotherblackman

    Anotherblackman I need me some PIE!

    While that red may be true to a certain extent, I didn't happen over night by any means. It was the lack of creativity put into IS'es design from DoG while the lackadaisical approach is geared for other factions that have multiple power (seriously bro shadow shank is 69 nora instakill that comes back in 5 rounds if nothing happens to it, I personally will have all the credibility for this mindset Ill ever need until it is replaced,) that forged this mindset. IF you want to change it, make Defensive attack, supposedly IS'es signature core ability cause its on like 6 would be good runes in the faction, to not be a useless sandbag ability soaking up both design space and upgrade paths.

    I have already witnessed with 4 of IS"es main themes(birds,grintmaw,paladins,constructs). Serious reductions in efficiency while slashing power in the same move. Only reason barbs are making it is cause someone gave barbs back incite which is another carry me crutch for the theme. Dwarves can get often by since mid game, Priest of valdac and Dwarven king can change the tone of the game quick only due to divine favor spam but if they can't get into a rhythm its like they run out of gas after leaving the house vs some of the cheaper, stronger, easier to play bg's(like SL skeezick warcry, march of skeezick 20 damage surge skeezicks that never lose their damage until they are dead)

    To your green, IS had Paladins as their crown jewel theme just as long as UD and FW had their historical synergy until you destroyed every aspect of the deck, removed core runes from the theme, then DoG proceeded to remove things from theme like its tanking, to its healing, to the runes that support it, then on its beaters main beaters to the point where its just a former shadow of the power it used to possess. Same exact strategy, just watered down to the point of flavorless combat and subpar tactics(like the whole talgar+ hammer plate mail or Geomancer+strip armour carry me thing that IS has recently had going). I hope players can support this model.

    Either way I didn't want to give you my life story of my experiences of DoG, nor a history lesson on IS paladins. I just simply wanted to give you a response to even the lead dev playing off viable complaints by summarizing my "complex". If my tone offends Im sorry.
  6. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    You will notice I concluded with the comment about the complex based on the specific arguments you made that I replied to. If you consider that as dismissive, or "playing off," then so be it, but I don't see how I can give your thoughts any more play than directly answering them.

    I would also note that every faction has multiple people who say the same thing you say about IS, so you'll have to forgive me if I don't take your word for it when you have given me very little reason to listen to you thus far when you are mostly just ranting the majority of the time about runes everyone knows are good and when most of your complaints seem to be stem from stuff from Gedden's revamp rather than things that have been endemic to IS all along as you seem to claim.

    And yea, Defensive Attack is dumb - I am pretty sure it had been eradicated prior to Gedden's revamp which brought it back. Tho I am not sure how you get to "6 would be good runes" when there are just 5 IS runes with it, and only 2 who are forced to take it that isn't a Leoss - so I think you overestimate its impact if it is changed or replaced.
    Last edited: May 1, 2015
  7. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    If you cannot see the difference between a good chunk of a faction's runes SPECIFICALLY being "Demon" and why losing Demon is a huge deal in such a context, compared to something like Paladin which is a subtheme of a faction... then I don't know what to say to you. The rest of what you say I don't even think warrants a response as it's just another "IS sucks" rant.

    If you have specific examples of changes that "destroyed every aspect" of the deck which you think could be fixed, I am willing to entertain those, but ranting and raving as you do gives me very little to work with.

    Also "life story of my experiences with DoG" makes it sound like this has been going for years, but of course DoG didn't exist until recently... so at this point I am fairly certain you are talking about Gedden's revamp, mostly? Again, if you can be more specific with your problems with the Paladin theme (perhaps in a PM or in a new thread, since we are derailing the Barbarian thread pretty hard here), I can better understand your position.
  8. Thbigchief

    Thbigchief I need me some PIE!

    - So much people use bastion currently other then a gimmick. He's basically a meme "give them angel Barb paladin..." Yeh that's cuz of Bastion.

    - He is not the reason Paladins are weaker now.....he should not be the reason they are strong in the future. He can keep 20 classes and races if people really think that makes sense when there are already 2 REAL paladin heros...All I want is a barbarian theme representation on his base abilities and one upgrade line. I'll post a build soon.

    P.s. I got no beef with you ijab, but you trying to put me in the "guys that destroyed IS club" and that ain't me...Your on your kick with IS current power level and I feel you but this is a barbarian out or gtfo
  9. Dresnar20365988

    Dresnar20365988 Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Sok. Why did you nerf holly ground last patch?

    Please explain why it was important to nerf the ability over deminsion gate for example?

    I'm currently playing minos. They are a good time. When I use consecration and I see a boring ol 4 worth if healing all I do is roll my eyes. It's not impactful, it's not strong, it's not fun. You know what is? Dimension gate.

    My flame crusher teleports to a 25 nora relic for 2 ap 6 squares (sometimes more) tramples for 4 damage then pummels for 30 dmg. Could my opponent have done anything to prevent it? Not usually.

    You talk about a persecution complex when it isnt. What it really is you lack an understanding of how to balance IS.

    Again, you nerfed consecrate ground but left drown? Why? How does that extra 2 pts of healing warrent your attention but drown is left alone? If you have limited time and resources how do you justify spending your time and resources on consecration instead of Myx drones????

    Please explain it to us. We want to understand. I just can't figure it out for the life of me why these constant tweeks that pick away at the power level of IS keep coming but truly egregious things in other factions are not touched.

    Blink relic is no more. People didn't like it. Great, no problem. Who likes drown? Sure Fs players do. But the rest of us? And yet there it is, still drowning, but that consecrate ground, gotta stop that from being fun to use asap.

    Throw us a bone. Explain your logic in a way that makes sense.
  10. Anotherblackman

    Anotherblackman I need me some PIE!

    Sokolov is poxnoras God and this is his sand box. HE is in charge. That has been his bone since I started trying to truly understand where he is going with the game.

    From costing, to synergy, to buffing stuff while "nerfing" it He hasn't failed once, according to him and the left overs of what used to be poxnora.
  11. Gwyndionnz

    Gwyndionnz I need me some PIE!

    If I remember right, there was a whole lot of noise about how OP CtE was, given it was a AOE cleanse, heal mass 2 and LoL dmg to demons and undead. To a lot of people it looked like too much given the other sources of healing available to IS. People HATE playing against healing and defensive mechanics for some reason, possibly cause they feel that they shouldn't be 'punished' for rushing up and failing to completely smash face and one round several champs at once.

    Bring back the dmg and raise the heals to 6 I say.

    Also, Jabby, I appreciate your passion and advocacy for IS, but you could do with toning down the hyperbole and direct attacks on Sok, both of which get us nowhere as a faction.
  12. nakaruru

    nakaruru Devotee of the Blood Owl

    I recall the majority of the discussion was with trail hallowed ground and the comparison with regen. Before the changes it healed for more, cleansed, potentially helped other units, and removed terrain. All of this iirc was for 1 nora more which even if all you did was look at the healing it was a better bargain.
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  13. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    And currently it still heals, cleanses and removes terrain. When you compare it to Trail: Rock at 5 nora or Lava at 12 nora vs Trail: Hallowed Ground's 7... it's still damn good.
  14. darklord48

    darklord48 Forum Royalty

    As someone that enjoys playing slags, I hate that hallowed ground overrides all other terrain. I would rather see it be like dmz or follow the same rules as other terrain.
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  15. Dresnar20365988

    Dresnar20365988 Devotee of the Blood Owl

    This is why you are having a tuff time balancing IS. You are confusing the power of defensive abilities and offensive abilities.

    Offense your opponent controls. Defense relies on how your opponent plays.

    In a recent game I was vs vash. The rattman with all the defense abilities was jamming up my front line. I drowned it and killed a more vulnerable champ in the rear that I would of been unable to had I tried to go through the front rat.

    Consecrate isn't strong at all or a "dammed good ability" at all. It's a meh ability. It was good when it damaged ud and fw, clensed, and healed 8 every turn. Now it's boring and not very unimpactful. It's in no way like drown for example.

    This is why you are having such a difficult time balancing IS. You are comparing defensive and offensive abilities as if they were the same. They arent.
  16. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Interesting that you tell me that I have a problem because I am comparing defensive and offensive abilities as if they were the same (when I actually wasn't doing anything of the sort)... then you turn around and are comparing a 75 nora spell to a 7 nora defensive ability. At least I picked other trail abilities to demonstrate the cost to effect ratio you are getting with those things (Trail: Rock seems overcosted, incidentally).

    Yes, offense is stronger, that's why it tends to be costed more for similar effects.

    Want more comparisons? How about Cleanse at 7 nora for a single target cleanse on CD3 and costs AP? Trail: Hallowed Ground is fine, and your insistence it's bad because "in no way like drown" baffles me.

    (Note: I can understand your argument that IS lacks powerturn enabling runes like Drown in the other thread, but you can't expect that kind of impact from a 7 nora ability.)
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  17. Dresnar20365988

    Dresnar20365988 Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Consecration, the spell. Way way way over costed for what it does. That is why 0 people run it. I USED to run it. Back when it did stuff and was price properly. Who in their right mind would use it now?

    If you nerf stuff in the name of "balance" but no one runs it what did you achieve? IS is back to double hammerstrike bane blast for crist sakes. How freekin dull is that?

    This is what I'm talking about. You have to beware the IS nerfherders. They claim stuff is OP but when it's reduced in power, the power they claim is "balanced", you will find that no one, not even them, will use it.

    I will positively say that if I had the option to remove consecrate from Euan and Magnus in its current form I'd happily do so. It's now a very situational ability to the point I'd rather not pay the points for it and have those champs fulfill a more specialized role.

    Trail rock is over costed as well, agree there. It's almost exclusively an IS ability so............

    People may dislike playing vs defensive abilities. However, quite a few of us enjoy the strategy of it. I find playing minos to be so incredibly boring some times. Rush or build up and power turn wit devestatingly high damageing spells. It's the same thing every game. FS is the same thing. Spam a few champs, get enough Nora to spam a few OP spells and win.

    With defense you have to be a bit more thoughtful. You have to guess what your opponent will do and counter it. RD a champ or will my opponent guess I used it and go for something else? Am I positioned so my opponent will be shy the damage to kill my champ and I can play the POV next turn to heal up or will he have enough to kill it off? Will courage build up enough defense as my champ gets damaged that it survives the attack?

    For me personally this is a much more enjoyable game. It's the playstyle I prefer. Unfortunately the tools to play this way have been stripped from the faction.

    Please fix asap.
  18. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Ok, so... someone mentioned Trail: Hallowed Ground and I respond specifying Trail: Hallowed Ground and then you mention Consecration which is an ability. Except that you want to talk to about a spell called Consecration - except that the spell called Consecrate the Earth. I am not trying to be mean, but there was no way I could figure out you were talking about the spell from that, especially since you refer to it as an "ability" in your post =P

    In any case, the spell has always been bad - it was never all that good and rarely run. But anyway, the spell is also one of those kinds of spells that's probably not worth running no matter how much it costs (other than the potential for spell abuse such as Favor or Adaptive). So yea, the spell could use a redesign (more so than a buff), but that has little to do with the fact that the Hallowed Ground effect was doing far too much for one effect. Speaking of "no one runs it," I see that people still use the runes that have Hallowed Ground, aside from the spell (which again, barely anyone ran to begin with) - it's weird you'd focus specifically on the spell... it's like you are cherry picking data to suit your argument.
  19. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Honestly, my intention when I nerf is never to shoebox stuff, so I fully agree that if nerfs makes things unrunnable it hasn't achieved the goal. In fact, one of the primary metrics I use to gauge the overall health of the game is the diversity of runes being utilized in the meta, so believe me when I say I monitor this stuff fairly closely.
  20. Dresnar20365988

    Dresnar20365988 Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Thank you for your response and intrest.

    Bringing up the spell was an attempt to highlight the actual effectiveness of consecration. For example if consecration is as good as the nerfherders claim then why is the spell never run? While the effect alone is not the only concern, cost plays a role of course. The power of the ability vs the cost vs the power of other options is what determines if something is run. As you say, consecrate the earth was not an auto include at 25 nora when the effect was much stronger, to me that shows that the ability is not as impactful as a few claim. Consecrate the earth not being worth a slot compared to other runes.

    When the cost of consecrate the earth was increased to 35 nora(and much stronger than it is now) I said the spell would never see play again. The nerfherders told me i didnt understand the game. Who was right?

    I joined the comments on the spell with my sincere desire to remove the ability from Euan and Magnus in its current form. What this means is that the ability has decreased in power to the point where it's utility vs it's cost is no longer desirable.

    The ability Courage is another example. Tales of Valor was 1x in my bgs at 25 nora. At 30 nora I don't include it. The cost has increased passed the point of viability for the effect vs other options.

    Tac manuals is another example. It's gone from decks now as well. Replaced by the equip forge hammer that gives +2 damage and a bigger boost if you have a relic around.

    The point is listening to the nerfherders when it comes to IS is a bad idea. They always get it wrong simply because they don't like playing vs defensive mechanics. It has little to do with the actual impact the ability or champ has on the game in alot of cases.

    More to come later.

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