Discussion in 'Ironfist Stronghold' started by Thbigchief, Feb 8, 2015.
- So...anything about barbs or more derails?
After playing barbs all the way to top ranks I can say this about barbarians:
Their beaters are great but extremely boring and predictable.
Renegade is holding the bg together believe or not because he can hold a side font(or rush one) and its mostly because of the ability pillage(soon to be collateral nerfed because its on an entire theme as their flavor like putting 5 guys in a font and knocking back something or font ignorancing it = 50 nora). After the nerf to pillage he will be going back to the box simply because he won't be as effective as lonx hurler type of stuff.
Barbarians needs more of these types of guys as the main combat should be controlled by warcheifs(aka zedin and bastion and cheiftain)
brutality barbarian- He is so close to being ran, but impatient in a theme with limited healing means he is mostly a one way ticket type of champion. I think if he got bleed he could turn those numbers he issues into healing for himself. I think zerker should go away off him completely as it mostly prevents him from reaching key units before getting dropped in one round same. Same with berzerk attack 1,2,3. I would make him like this:
remove berzerker add in liability(cause if you had a mindless demon in your tribe... you would treat him like Alucard)
upgrade tree 1- bleed, quest-kill, quest damage
upgrade tree 2- cleave, rampage, fury or throw axe
I'd see how he is with thrist for battle and if hes is too powerful then I would remove that ability. That said, he has 0 base defense and less than 50 hp before he even enters combat.
He could be a really great unit. All he needs is block 1 base and vivify so he can hit something after hes pissed from getting hit or watching his veil walker get smacked.
If you want a complete redesign I would base it around protective and battle leader. I would then factor in something that all barbarians need. HP. I would give him commander warrior/ barbarian. So that way if wild chieftain isn't out yet, he can match up with barb guardian and provide a a stable front. He would be our option for the counter attack tactics.
Terraformer- This guy is super shoebox and he was pretty decent prevamp. He was murdered by DoG like alot of our efficient runes.
tundra barbarian- He suffers again from boring beater syndrome. I'd mix his style up.
Remove all his upgrades, both trees. and arctic
ATTACK FROST RETURNED(removed cause IS was made boring in revamp not cause it was OP in anyway)
Resistance frost 3 resilient added to base(being a barbarian that lives in/near the tundra he is used to harsher environments than most barbarians)
Upgrades on tree 1 opportunistic, chill 2 or 3(2 should be enough), frost trap 3.
Upgrades on tree 2: hunter ST(revenge for lonx hunter travesty), mountaineer or icegaurd, Savage exploit.
other than making him pure ST hate. He is meant to be someone who offers a defensive tactic for barbarians through frost trap and icegaurd or hardcore chilling combat with chill 2(or 3) and savage exploit.
barbarian guardian- He needs a complete redesign(again)
Likelihood of barbarian going to class or staying sub race with human being applied to all is humans to remain connected? (Treated fairly compared to rules already in game)
Likelihood of chief being reworked (example of how too) and it being added to additional champions?
Desired playstyle with mechanical limits and strong areas?
Niche/need the champions(race or class) fill in IS outside of being shunted into a mono race/class by they can't escape from. (Especially compared to dwarfs)?
Answer these if you want to really get the ball rolling with out all the vs from ego/personal missions.
I just want to point out I specifically asked for this exact build stressing the importance of that design synergy since he came out. The DREAM IS REAL!
Just want to point out that simply going by comparison or statistics/charts isn't going to cut it. Especially when you don't give enough info to flesh out your justifications. Those other trails also do more than just slap down some ground to walk on either directly or synergistically with out being purely reactive defensive mechanics that are objectively less powerful than others.
Trail hallowed ground Nerf could b fine but your overall reliance just on chart match ups as the stated reasoning isn't going to work when they don't really paint the whole picture for us.
But hes lead dev yo.
Hes poxnoras god.
THis is his SANDBOX!
I already answered Drensar on this earlier, but guess I have to answer it again.
I rely on a lot of stuff. Just because I am not typing an essay each post doesn't mean that I am only thinking about what I happened to say. If you have anything substantial to add other than obvious stuff that we all know that "paint the whole picture," I welcome discussing it further, but I honestly don't see any justification for arguing that Trail: Hallowed Ground is a bad ability no matter how you slice it.
3. Open to discussing, partly why I am participating in these threads
How does Pillage enable a unit to hold a side font?
What specific qualities are we talking about here?
Efficient trading in small scale skirmishes?
In my experience, things like Bleed when not in theme ends up being considered bad even if it is fine on the unit specifically.
Do you find Bleed to better than Life Siphon (other than that Life Siphon is probably overcosted)?
I feel like part of the reason you like him now it's because he's cheap. Note that even just Block 1 to base would put him close to 80 nora. We could throw out Fearless tho.
Keep in mind Commander abilities are part of the an expected change and would no longer give HP, tho Boost would be the HP buff then.
I buffed him pretty hard back then and any pullback towards a standardized formula was always going to hurt someone who wasn't paying anywhere close to full price for abilities.
His upgrades are actually basically the same as before, and he largely mainly lost Shatter and efficiency. So I don't know if I could count this as "murder" when he is still a sub-80 unit with 2 bombs. But hyperbole is the name of the game in the IS forums.
He really doesn't use his 3-4 range but ends up paying for it along with his base 8 DMG. If we rework him towards a more passive champs since his AEs don't require DMG, we might have something very useful in Barb decks (i.e. efficient), possibly OP.
Not sure how this makes him any less boring other than having alt damage and ST hate.
I like Opp Assault, but I'd lean more towards stuff like Sapping/Slowing Armor and Catalyst: Frost for the rest.
Also, when did he have Attack: Frost?
I think this is pretty true. Along with overlapping of roles/ability sets is also true of a good deal of runes in various themes since the revamp, and is something I've been trying to fix for all factions. To some extent, the revamp just slapped the same set of abilities on many runes featuring some commonality (regen 1/2/3 on draksar, defensive attack 1/2/3 on "tanky" stuff, etc.).
Pretty much. And if you want to be a jackass continually, I'll just end up ignoring you eventually. I don't have infinite patience when I am trying to be accommodating and only receive sour apples in return.
Note: Appreciated the analysis post.
That's not what I am saying. All that data he has and uses is just part of the picture but with out more insight as to his thought process or goals simply showing trail lava is 12 Nora vs hallowed ground being 7 is pointless. You can present or interpret data multiple ways and even at the best of times stats should inform not control your reasoning. He could be 100% right it just wasn't presented well by just charts on price especially when the price formula is known to be wrong. Imo there is a lot of things undervalued but that's an opinion which at the end of the day so was trail cte was to cheap/powerful.
That was my point. You have more info so when you just present part it's not going to cut it. For what it's worth I'm not trying to be an ass, just being honest about what it takes to convince people of something. I'm also not saying it is bad, just reminding you that despite it being obvious you did forget t o paint the whole picture. No essay needed, a sentence would of been enough sport.
If you actually go back and read, I said a lot more than one sentence on the subject.
To summarize and put into more detail:
Trail: Hallowed Ground combines the effects of several mechanics/abilities
It is basically always "ON" for the champion that it is on
It does the above on an overlay basis, and therefore can affect multiple champions
Tho obviously has tradeoffs/weaknesses relative to targeted or AE effects
If we price the effects individually, the ability would already be vastly more expensive, but bundled effects are generally cheaper, and such as it is in this case
The comparison to other Trail: X effects is apt because it gives us another point of comparison anchor - that is, the "base" effect of these abilities are similar, which allow us to judge the power level of its effects independent of the base quality, it's a different type of analysis than the first bullet point, which is comparing like effects
For example, Barrage can be compared to Pummel for some insight on one axis, while Barrage vs Piercing Shot allows us insight into the ability on a different axis, both of which are valuable
Anyway, I could go on, but I am honestly not sure what all that accomplished other than that now people will nitpick one or two piece of it or take something out of context, but there you have it: more derailing of the Barbarian thread.
No need to be an ass Sok, especially when I was trying to help you not beat your head against a wall in frustration over us being to dumb to get it. What it accomplishes is to shut up dresnar that you have a disconnect for offensive vs defensive mechanics and cant balance IS objectively or jab about you just hate IS. It also shows people how you looked at something, which helps us understand how you interpreted the mechanic compared to us.
Sokolov said: ↑
And currently it still heals, cleanses and removes terrain. When you compare it to Trail: Rock at 5 nora or Lava at 12 nora vs Trail: Hallowed Ground's 7... it's still damn good.
I posted after reading that post. You did post more info in other posts in the thread but the one I replied to, before reading everything in the whole thread, isnt a fair look at the ability compared to the others which do provide a heck of a lot for their price ( directly or synergisticly with other abilities ala fire eater or domain/etc). You can get mad at me all you want though I wont care. p.s. if you buffed the heal to 6-8 it wouldn't be as hated from what I can tell, or addressed the price in ap or nora for the different versions.
Anyway, barbarians, need more utility and ways to interact with each other. Bastion could go pure angel/cte deck with barbs not losing much in the way of anything really. THat might be the best bet if you do plan on a future barbarian hero. THough as its kinda cool concept that a pissed off angel exists under almara, that she has some smite vibe to her that barbs could connect with.
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