Reposting this from the old forums, I won't be transferring the discussions over so this may look a bit raw. First, I will begin with a quick resume of the speed distribution of a viable tortun bg (empirical, based on my experience), it's known that tortuns are a slow theme, and for that, any slow rune compete with other with low speed in a bg to avoid the risk of losing a match because you can't get your fonts or contest mid font in time. My rule is that you want include up to 4 champions with 5 spaces cap potential the turn after they are deployed (fishkisser, portalmage, repeater, broadside) and at least 4 champions with a 7 or higher cap potential (captain, minelayer, groundpounder). As you can see this last group is very slim, and his runes are subpar after the nerfs, and that hurts the viability of non IS splits and FF FS. At the same time, the refreshed diversity that the IS font bonus and the +1 speed from KF bonus is a nice boon for the theme (Basically, in those particular bgs you can choose not to include groundpounder, captain and minelayer and you can include all 8 tortuns with 5 or less capping potential). Now, to keep the diversity on the battlegroups I propose that only a handful of tortuns gained independent, to make them viable choices for the runner slot outside FF KF and IS splits. So I will remade my proposals of the OP with said separation in mind, this only adresses the first turn cap potential and other suggestions are related to my vision of the powerlevel of the runes. Tortun's trade Change: It should have an AoE of 8 and been able to activate every turn, though I would prefer if it were a passive ability that you can switch on and off with the activated button. Tortuns intended to gain independent: -Tortun Captain: SPD back to 6. Fearless removed, Bastion of courage instead of def upgrade. Note: The restrict upgrade should be changed to only impede your enemy of equipping, like the crystal yeti, if not, that ability could be replaced with something else, because no one will deny himself the opportunity to use the horn of order. -Tortun groundpounder: Opportunistic replaced with ready, HP to 50 and dodge 1 to base. -Tortun Inventor: SPD to 5 from 6, Accrue to base. Recycle or Craft replaces Grant: Damage shield: magical upgrade. -Tortun Minelayer: Accrue to base, Detection 2 changed to detection 3, Relocate: relic replaces exertion upgrade. HP to 50 (+2) -Tortun Galesinger: Opportunistic added to base, shroud to base. Repulsion replaces wind aura upgrade. Note: Repulsion is there to be a enabler for the 2-4 range tortuns, so the job of keeping the melee disengaged from your ranged champions now has two competitors, the privateer captain and the galesinger (one exotic and the other uncommon) Tortuns not intended to gain independent -Tortun corsair: Nora cost to 75-77. -Tortun fishkisser: Tough 3 replaces tough 2 upgrade and Resilient replaces charge/enrage upgrade. This way he counters auras and pings. It may need a slight cost decrease top of that. -Tortun repeater: loses vulnerable. Lay trap: fire upgrade replaced with shrine defender. Fits the lore of the rune and strenghtens his early game speed. Note: This upgrade will compete with other good ones, so you can have several builds, ignoring the shrine defender upgrade when you don't need the early game speed hike, if you don't include the other 5-4 speeders or you are running FF KF or IS split. -Tortun slamhammer: Resistance: physical replaced with scale armor. nora cost to 78 -Tortalleon Gunbattery: Loses vulnerability: magic base, Gains colossal base. Upgrades become bash, tremor, guard tower, shroud. cost raised accordingly, could gain lethargic if needed -Tortun Grenadier: Gains grant: death nova fire base Spells -Tortun cannon barrage: nora cost to 25-30. It needs deployed tortuns to work and it's random physical damage, it isn't near any other AoE spell. -Eriluun's favor: It's not useful the way it's now. Special request #1 "Justice" -Tortun Bokor: to KF/FW, so he can proc distichous in warspirit, helping the witch theme, tortun's trade to base and some upgrade to replace it, like hex. Note: ghost stalker already brought soul collection to KF, so no problem with that Special Request #2 " Help for specific splits" Splits With IS: - Wildeye bracers: Changed to equipped champion gains mercenary and impatient, if it's a friendly champion it also loses ponderous and gains hostile instead of impatient. Factions from IS to IS/FS or IS/KF. Note: FS has more ponderous champions than KF, IS has the DMC. Mercenary is for both friends and foes. Special Request #3 "Tortuns' HP" I would like to have all tortuns with a minimun of 50 hp, the are suppossed to be tanky in general.
Your concerns about Tortuns have been noted and I included a link, so if you make changes based on the discussion we will be able to follow up. With that said, what would you say is the are major root problems with Tortuns? More speed for better chance to cap, More HP, more with independent?
The problem with tortuns is a bit of everything you said, first, the racial was (over)nerfed and never corrected, I don't even bother to generate 1 or 2 nora when I play anymore, top of that, the runes the theme was clutching on at the moment were nerfed with the removal of independent, but in a way that made them not only slower but also weaker. You add to that a bit of powercreep and the theme went down the drain, because most people that played it learnt the theme from jazzman's guide on the old (old) forums (like I did) and the nerf destroyed that kind of tortun lineup mostly, so 90% of the existing tortun battlegroups were useless and people got angry. Basically, tortuns are too slow to match the speed of the current dominant battlegroups, because the faster ones are bad, their melee lineup is severely underpowered (if it weren't for privateer captain the theme would be dead for me aswell) and his racial is impactless. Some of the other changes I propose is to add a bit of variety to the battlegroups and the HP thing is more arbitrary than anything else, but it would help also.
the funny thing is TT was not changed (as i recall) because it was OP it was changed because it had such hard counters with nora gen counters. They basically made you insta lose if they had any kind of nora gen counter. Id much rather have TT go back the way it was than where it is now. I mean sure nora gen counters did suck, but to me thats kinda the point of the game and deck building. But ideally id like to see TT changed to GabrielQ's suggestion of global activated with zero CD. On top of this most tortuns do need a look at in terms of buffing or nerfing (mostly buffing).
Yeah, TT got changed because ironfist agent came out and corrupted nora was everywhere. At that moment the only way to run tortuns was splitting with FW for tome of hate.
Who else thinks that tortun grenadier could receive Grant: Deat Nova Fire* as a starting ability? I imagine the grenadier handling a moga a long fuse grenade and the moga don't figuring it should throw it off. *target champion within 7 spaces gains death nova fire 4 for 1 turn, this ability was in the tortun inventor but it was removed from the game when him got grant: electricity aura alongside other changes
Basically everything Gab mentioned in the OP. The thing I am really most concerned with changing Tortuns Trade. I back up the change the Gab suggested in the OP it is fair. 1. Allows the player to stay more spaced out to play around getting spell spammed. 2. Making the ability passive saves time and also allowing us to "toggle" TT would help to play around Corrupted Nora and the like. I also specifically enjoy the changes Gab suggested for Galesinger as it allows people who may not be able to acquire a Privateer Captain to have a champ to help protect the ranged tortuns. (Also possibly creating a melee tort in the future to fit this role wouldn't be a bad idea?) And lastly most torts could use a drop in nora cost?
Fort tortuns trade, id say, if you remove cooldown, keep the range limit, and if you want it global, make it cooldown 2, the fact is that this ability was OP when your opponent didnt have any Nora gen counter, so one of the above is required in order to keep it fair for having control over the ability
Tortuns trade was never OP it was changed due to corrupted nora hurting tortuns too much, most decent tortuns are expensive and this ability helped to cast them consistently.
You might be right , but why did they nerfed it on top of that then? Also its not working when A tortun Is alone, and distract prevent it
I just like how tortuns got nerfed hardcore and they were not at the time a top contender, meanwhile FW goes unpunished with their shenanigans.
i would like to see most of the tortons lose ponderous. With the damage out put and hit points of most meta themed champs, i do not feel like a torton attacking you twice in one turn is that OP any more.
Ya ponderous is fine i mean tortuns mostly have high attack and high defense i just think they need some of the lesser runes reworked to be a bit better and usable i dont mind ponderous.
"high defense" 1-3. Mostly 3 for melee capable units. Anyway. I'd much rather like the Nora thing to be changed again. To like what HalfGodBro said. Either make it global again with 2 turn CD or take off the CD with up to 6 spaces range. Idea for the up to 6 could also include that the range increases by 1 for each deployed tortun. And while Ponderous is annoying at times, but mainly on certain champs, it isnt all that bad. Or at least I just cant get bothered by it much.
I thought I'd propose the revamp keeping in mind the upcoming style of less cluttered champions: First of all racial: Tortuns have linked 4 abilities: Amphibious Tortun's trade Ponderous Turtle From those, the key ones are amphibious and tortun's trade, so they should be merged, ideally, unlink them from the race tortun so it can be used on other pirate-like champions, that way, you give the would be tortun amphibious to avoid being screwed over by your own abilities and spells. The execution of the nora gen should be done ideally in a way that is comfortable and not click intensive, ideally with a passive that can be switched off, but a long cd long duration ability could be good too. I was thinking that the rogue class could be linked to it in some way something like: "when this champion attacks it generates 1 nora for every 2 friendly tortuns or rogues" rogue seem a fitting class for pirates, and it doesn't seem like it would be worth a new class. well, absent a better name, I'll still call it TT, but keep in mind that is amphibious + nora gen ability in fact. Ponderous isn't key on the tortun scheme but most of the basic traits of the theme come from it, so I'll be keeping it Turtle is a important defensive ability, but it doesn't affect the gameplay in a drastic way as ponderous does, so I'll be moving to upgrades on some, if not most, cases. A option would be merging ponderous and turtle also, that would be flavourful, as the ponderous ability in tortuns does in fact seems to be linked to having a shield. A conditional on the use of turtle may help to make it interesting, but I'm not sure. Now, to the revamps: Mangleshell: DMG 12 SPD 6 RNG 4-6 DEF 3 HP 55 Abilities: Attack gun TT Ponderous Pirate's treasure Split hero dread vindictive > intimidating frightful blows > turtle notes: mangleshell is a boring beater, nothing to do about that, maybe pirate's treasure could be reworked into something interesting Tremir DMG 15 SPD 6 RNG 1 DEF 5 HP 55 Abilities attack physical TT ponderous Cannon barrage unstoppable split hero Vindictive > reflexes 3 > turtle Violence charged 2 > race charged Tremir is tremir. Privateer captain DMG 10 SPD 6 RNG 2-4 DEF 3 HP 50 Abilities: Attack gun TT Ponderous Slam Change of plans Deploy land mine > Deploy artillery marker Turtle > Lockdown > shatter Tortalleon Gunbattery DMG 0 SPD 4 RNG 1 DEF 5 HP 60 Abilities TT artillery strike accrue Tremor > Guard tower Shroud > trample Tortalleon Pygmy DMG 16 SPD 5 RNG 1 DEF 3 HP 60 Abilities Attack physical TT Ponderous CA: Devastate ready > scale armor Unstoppable > turtle Tortalleon transport DMG 0 SPD 6 RNG 1 DEF 5 HP 60 Abilities TT Trail water Transport Unload Dive 3 Warding > Earthbound Turtle > cannon barrage Notes: cannon barrage but no built in charge accrual, transport and unload could be reworked into a sort of a mobile skywing beacon, but that needs to be still the turn before you can deploy. Tortun battle mystic DMG 12 SPD 6 RNG 3-5 DEF 3 HP 50 Abilities Attack magical TT ponderous Mystic push Elusive Turtle > immunity fire > immunity ice Spellswallower > tempo notes: elusive instead of arrow eater. Tortun broadside DMG 15 SPD 5 RNG 3-6 DEF 3 HP 50 Abilities Attack cannon TT Ponderous Barrage 1 Strike > sunder Turtle > CA: slam Tortun captain DMG 13 SPD 6 RNG 2-5 DEF 3 HP 50 Abilities Attack gun TT Ponderous opportunistic scramble Bastion of courage > Restrict (reworked as in OP) Stab > Pin Down Tortun corsair DMG 13 SPD 6 RNG 1 DEF 3 HP 50 Abilities Attack physical TT Ponderous pistol shot turtle Pilfer > tariff Precision > detection Tortun favored DMG 10 SPD 6 RNG 5-7 DEF 3 HP 50 Abilities Attack magical TT Ponderous Tidal wave Heal mass 3 > turtle Cleanse > high tide Tortun Fishkisser DMG 12 SPD 6 RNG 1 DEF 3 HP 50 Abilities Attack physical TT ponderous manic unstoppable Assault > tough 3> turtle Charge 3 > resilient > enrage 3 Tortun Galesinger DMG 13 SPD 6 RNG 2-4 DEF 3 HP 50 Abilities Attack magical TT Ponderous Zephyr shield Repulsion Opportunistic > soothing serenade Wind striker > bastion of will Tortun grenadier DMG 14 SPD 6 RNG 2-4 DEF 3 HP 50 Abilities Attack fire ponderous TT Fire bomb 3 Siege > grant: Lay trap fire 3 > deploy land mine? Farshot > Grant death nova fire (see OP) > stab Tortun groundpounder DMG 16 SPD 5 RNG 1 or 1-2 DEF 3 HP 50 Abilities Attack physical TT ponderous unstoppable crushing charge Tremor > antagonize Turtle > stun Tortun gunslinger DMG 13 SPD 6 RNG 3-5 DEF 3 HP 50 Abilities Attack pistol TT Ponderous Ricochet shot Precision > strike Multiattack 1 > counter attack ranged Tortun inventor DMG 10 SPD 5 RNG 2-4 DEF 3 HP 50 Abilities Attack electricity TT Ponderous lightning skewer Grant elec. aura accrue Flash bomb > spark charge Turtle > paralyze Tortun minelayer DMG 10 SPD 5 RNG 1 DEF 3 HP 50 Abilities Attack physical TT Ponderous Deploy land mine Detection 3 Accrue Relocate relic > lay trap boulder 3 Turtle > lay trap fire 3 Tortun mortar DMG 14 SPD 6 RNG 6-8 DEF 3 HP 50 Abilities Attack fire ponderous TT Artillery Siege > burn 3 Turtle > Lay trap fire 3 Tortun portalmage DMG 0 SPD 6 RNG 1 DEF 3 HP 50 Abilities TT Turtle deploy charged 1 charged 2 charged summon tortalleon charged heal Swap 3 > race charged Remove charge > add charge He's no longer a depoly t 1/2 or no deploy at all with these changes. Tortun repeater DMG 12 SPD 5 RNG 5-7 DEF 3 HP 50 Abilities Attack gun TT Ponderous Defensive strike or suppressing fire Explosive attack Ready > shrine defender Turtle > Font blessing Tortun slamhammer DMG 12 SPD 6 RNG 1 DEF 3 HP 50 Abilities Attack physical TT Ponderous CA: stun Unstoppable Pummel 2 > pummel 3 Scale armor > tough 3 Tortun bokor (KF/FW (preferably) or FS/FW) DMG 13 SPD 6 RNG 2-4 DEF 3 HP 50 Abilities Attack physical Ponderous Soul collection cursed treasure Boon of the undead > elsari coven > TT Stab > resistance magical 3 > forsaken exploit
