What do you think about reworking some units without ponderous and give them defensive turtle. Then add ponderous to defensive turtle after its been activated. granted it would effect a few other units but besides Rock Forger I wouldn't see much of a problem with the units with defensive turtle on base. Maybe give those units turtle or a different defensive ability.
Why would someone become ponderos after using defensive turtle? why would you want to mix those two abilities from a game perspective? What advantages would it bring to the game in terms of balance or to the tortuns as a theme?
I was simply trying to add a draw back in suggesting some torts lose ponderous. The draw back being a changed defensive turtle. Thematically I find it suiting that after you emerge out of an immobilizing shell you become ponderous.
How bout a question for you rather than a suggestion... Are there any torts that should lose ponderous? Does the tortun need a drawback if its lost ponderous? (Wont even bother asking you if you think defensive turtle should have ponderous added to it...either permanently or for a few turns) Dont quote this)
There is a inherent trait in tortuns that is attacking less for more damage, this gives tortuns a particular set of streneghts and synergy and a clear gameplay identity, this makes tortun naturally: Strong against high defense champions Less inclined to hit and run tactics synergetic with SL powerturns not able to double tap without outside support in most cases. And if you realize, these traits are the tortun traits in it's majority (you add "above average stats exept speed" and you are done) and they all come from ponderous, so the ability is key. Also, removing ponderous and multiattack from one of the multiattack tortuns is also controversial, because horn of order removes ponderous, so you wouldn't be able to remove it to gain a bonus.
Slammhammer would be a candidate for defensive turtle. All that multiattack does is negate ponderous which I suggested removing. Only after a defensive turtle proc would he gain ponderous (permanently or temporarily) Gunslinger on the other makes no sense with it. I would suggest Captain, Pygmy, Broadside, Minelayer, and Mortar. As well as Slammhammer above. The synergy and gameplay of tortuns are all relative to their kit. "Tortun captain DMG 13 SPD 6 RNG 2-5 DEF 3 HP 50 Abilities Attack gun TT Ponderous opportunistic scramble Bastion of courage > Restrict (reworked as in OP) Stab > Pin Down" You even added opportunistic to Tortun Captain so you acknowledge that it needs some speed. Granted opportunistic is pseudo speed and a dmg buff as well. "Tortun minelayer DMG 10 SPD 5 RNG 1 DEF 3 HP 50 Abilities Attack physical TT Ponderous Deploy land mine Detection 3 Relocate relic > lay trap boulder 3 Turtle > lay trap fire 3" How does a turtle not have turtle (which is essentially losing its shell=death if you want to get literal) make thematic sense? Defensive turtle after it lays down some mines makes complete thematic sense, but that's only if you need theme to justify adding abilities.
the synergy and gameplay of tortuns are all about ponderous and TT and the things that have to be done in order to balance these two things. Also, note that I also proposed an alternative to gather together ponderous and turtle as a physical characteristic that you can slap on every shelled champion on poxnora and tortun's trade with amphibious to fit pirates of all kinds. So you have a earth turtle -> you can give it ponderous + turtle with the bundle without making him amphibious And you have a pirate -> you can give it the TT + amphibious bundle to make it part of the crew without making him a tortun.
What I suggested is something that could be done to balance some tortuns with ponderous. You're justification for having these abilities is that not all turtle are amphibious and not all pirates are turtles. My justification is not all turtles are slow. Back to Tortun Captain. Why do you suggest opportunistic? More for power creep I guess but removing ponderous and adding defensive turtle(with ponderous as I suggested) accomplishes the same as what you suggested. However what I suggested can be added to multiple units rather than the one.
opportunistic is to have some tortuns moving 7 spaces to cap fonts, and it seemed better than 5 speed + accrue. Minelayer was also supposed to have accrue and I didn't wrote it so I corrected it already. And I don't fully understand how opportunistic + ponderous can be the same as defensive turtle. You have to consider that I'm proposing this changes to allow tortuns to be a top viable theme
Tortuns were my first theme I have the same goals in mind. I believe you are going off your runes as what is standard now. Captain as is: 5 spd accrue = pseudo 7 on deploy, ponderous (can double tap every other w/o moving) GabQs Capt: 6 spd opp = pseudo 7 on deploy, ponderous (can double tap every other w/ moving) Aseryens Capt: 5 spd, defensive turtle(granting ponderous on proc) (can double tap every other w/ moving) Can you see now that we suggest the same idea rather mine can be spread to other units. You have to consider that I'm proposing this change to allow for tortuns to be a top viable theme. Thank you.
If you want to act like the Tortun king you should get off your Tortalleon Transport and explain why they're different. Granted the original design and your design move faster but thematically turtles don't move fast and your first argument was along the lines that changes needed to stay theme related. And if all you want is a faster moving Captain make it 6 spd non ponderous and have my suggested defensive turtle design.
I wanted to made clear that the HP and DMG values of the tortuns are supposed to be above average values and not set values, like the speed (and pseudo speed). Remember that if tortuns end being too cheap, they'll be OP because of the nature of tortun's trade (this doesn't means to go overboard with the prices neither, just a above average nora cost curve)
bumping as new tortun racial was revealed on the new revamp preview. My revamp proposition is in te last post of the first page.
I think I will compare my propositions with the now revamped tortuns to give my feedback: First, the "racial": Old: Tortun's trade, ponderous, turtle and amphibious My proposition: Ponderous and turtle bundled -> this ability woud fit all shelled individuals, not only those aquatics tortun's trade and amphibious bundled -> this ability woud fit all seafarers and pirates. Revamp: A choice between tortun's trade, banditry and pillage, ponderous, turtle and amphibious bundled (tortun shell) I think my proposed bundles are better because they are more easily splashed into other units and they allow out of theme champions to be fully involved into the theme with a single ability. Champions: Split heros Mangleshell: almost the same as I proposed, effective. Tremir: again, the purpose was kept, I would prefer a defensive ability instead of pistol shot though, with my two bundles, pistol shot could be in the second upgrade path alongside some defensive ability and a support one (like rallying cries or battlemaster) to get 3 different options. All in, the champion is good. Exotics: Tortun captain: Pretty different, mostly in the fact that he doesn't support champions outside scramble/vigorous cry, and accrue is auto upgrade. I would make him SPD 6 and give him bastion of courage and restrict in path 1 and stab and opportunistic in path 2 (remember TT is base with the bundles.) Privateer captain: His signature ability shares a spot with TT, that's the worst about it, and he needs his 2 minimum range back as it allowed him to make combinations with land mine. I would give change of plans base, range 2-4 path 1 lockdown and cripple and path 2 as it is now (Note: in my opinion, both the deploy abilities should cost the same) Rares: Tortun battle mystic: I mostly agree with the changes, but path 2 is basically worhtless, I would replace it with spellswallower /tempo. Also, I would like def reduced to 2, arrow eater replaced with elusive and hp to 50. Tortun corsair: This champion is weird, mostly because of his 1-2 range + pistol shot. I would change his rng back to 1-1 and change upgrade paths to: tariff / pilfer and precision / detection or precision / pillage. Tortun favored: it was mostly a support rune before, tortun's secondary healer, now it's a beater with nora shield. I would change his RNG to 5-6, his def to 2 and his hp to 50. I propose path 1 to nora shield / heal mass 3 and path 2 to high tide / cleanse. Tortun gunslinger: Mostly fine, only that combo attack declare target won't get picked ever and I think that barrage is a more fitting burst damage ability given the art. second path could be precision / strike. And HP to 50 Tortun portalmage: it's essentially the same that before revamp, I'd hoped for a sligthly more interesesting champion. Tortun repeater: unrunnable, he needed his massive range to be almost worth it before. I suggest path 1 to ready / shrine defender, path 2 to font blessing / defensive strike and suppressing fire replaced with sentinel. HP to 50. Uncommon: Tortun broadside: fine, second upgrade path could be sunder / strike. Tortun galesinger: while the execution isn't bad, I would very much prefer my version, without zephyr shield if needed to boost it's stats.( It would be: attack magical; racial bundles; repulsion; zephyr shield; opportunistic /soothing serenade and wind striker/bastion of will, +10 hp +3/4 damage) Tortun inventor: well made, I would roll skewer into second path with grant: aura and flash bomb Tortun slamhammer: It's overcosted and knockback is dead upgrade, second path should be some defensive ability like scale armor of res physical and his HP should be bumped up to or above 50, maybe reducing his damage a little to put him in a control role. Tortalleon pygmy: you made him into a HP tank, that is fitting for his role as a summon, but pygmy was a key piece in tortuns, allowing them to deal with heavy champions and to threath against rushes, I would very much appreciate if combo attack devastate would come back, as long as it's not the predetermined upgrade, it shouldn't mess with portalmage. Right now, I would play the pygmy at 59 nora, I would go to 70 to play with combo attack. Common: Tortun fishkisser: I expected him to be fixed damage tank and range hate, I say give him resilient base, and move charge from base to path 1, and complete that path with assault and manic, getting rid of damage shield. Tortun grenadier: ended up very efficient, but I don't like pillage on base and the second upgrade path. I say remove pillage and change that path to grant: death nova fire / siege / grant: lay trap fire Tortun groundpnder: fine if you like it Tortun minelayer: bad execution, tortuns need detection and no more 5 speed champions, so either 6 spd or 5/4 + accrue, detection 2 or 3 base and path 1 to relocate relic / grant lay fire trap / lay fire trap. Tortun mortar: Not viable at 4 speed, second path must include accrue, or change stats to 6 speed and giving him flavourful upgrade path. More damage and more hp would be welcome, a weakness like defenseless would fit also. I think this champion would be better near 75 nora cost. Tortalleon gunbattery: Resist fire is dead upgrade, see my proposal for references for a rework Tortalleon transport: see previos proposal to even start to make it runnable. Tortun bokor: see revamp, but it depends on the new direction of witches. Thanks for albino pygmy! really appreciate it.
