Greetings. First of all, keep in mind that im a semi-new player, so i might be wrong in some aspects. I'm making this thread to ask developers to buff tortuns to the point (at least) where they will be playeable again. In the past Tortuns BGs had seen some play, as they were kinda balanced. The old Tortun's Trade ability was fairly regulated by ponderous and their low speed. The low speed was countered by high DMG and high DEF champs. Now, in the present, the ability has been reworked and REMOVED from most of part of the Tortuns (this is probably the main reason because they dont see play anymore), they still have awsome DEF but they have lost DMG, and most of the tortuns received many nerfs, losing almost all their strenght. I have been experimentating and testing tortuns and i found my games really hard to win. The main problems i have found are: -The low speed plus the extra AP cost per atack while having average DMG values make they DMG output really low in comparison to almost every other BG. Only few tortuns still have decent DMG values (Tortun Fishkisser, Tortun Groundpounder, Mangleshell with vindictive and Tremir) -Almost all of them are really expensive nora wise (even with FF FS bg) and most of them dont justify the price you are paying. -Since tortuns have stability they have no way to receive speed buffs (Timeslip, for example), so they have lost any help from spells or abilities that counter the speed problem. Note that this make Tortuns unable to play as FF KF BG, as they literally get NO FACTION BONUS. -Also, i want to make a special mention; Tortun favored is now a bad designed rune. You can choose between Empowered: Offense, Empowered: Range and EMPOWERED: SPEED. As i said before tortuns cant get more speed, so you are paying for a worst version of mobility, because is removed after some atacks and has the same nora price than mobility itself. -The new tortun's trade mechanic is not bad, the main issue it has is that only 3 champs has that ability (Tremir, Tortun Captain, Tortun Portalmage) , and one of those (Tortun Portalmage) you'll be more likely to chose heal champion instead of tortun's trade ability as it is the only way to get healing out of tortuns. -Tortun gunslinger is prob another bad designed rune, as it has Combo Atack: Declare Target and no Barrage, making really hard to get some value out of this Ability. -Another problem in my opinion is that the 2 tortun heroes are not similar in strenght between them, Tremir is way better than Mangleshell because of Cannon Barrage, making Tremir almost an autoinclude over Mangle. This leads to never choose Mangleshell on tortuns BGs, because you need the power of Tremir to be able to do something. This makes Tortuns themed BGs more boring, as you have (almost) no choise of your hero. Some sugestions: -Add tortun's trade ability to: Privateer Captain, Tortun Battle Mystic and Tortun Favored (at least). -Give some DMG buff to Tortun Battle Mystic, Tortun Gunslinger, Tortun Repeater, Privateer Captain and Risen Grenadier as they atack DMG dont pay off the extra AP cost. -Nerf Tremir's Cannon Barrage (give it 1+ CD, at least) to make Mangleshell an option. -Lower the nora price of tortuns in general. -Give Tortun Broadside and Tortalleon pigmy +1 speed. -Make a big rework/redisign on Tortalleon Transport, give him relocate ally + dive/teleport and/or some support abilities. The actual Transport/Unload abilities are really slow and (anyway) not that usefull. -Remove the whole empowered skills from Tortun Favored and give him some support abilities (Heal campion 3, Tortun's trade, Heal Mass 2, or something like that). -Remove fire trap ability from Tortun Repeater and Tortun Mortar and give them a some usefull abilities. -Redisign/Replace Long Fuse Bomb ability from Risen Granadier, as it is way too situational and hard to get value off. -Remove Combo: Declare Target from Tortun Gunslinger and add something usefull (like Far Shot, for example). -Remove dive ability from Tortaleon Transport and give it Deep dive ability. --Add Banditry (and may be Pilfer) ability to more tortuns, as it fits well with the pirate theme and Banditry it is easily regulated by ponderous. I think that it is really possible to reach some balance between Bandtry and Tortun's Trade, as these abilities sinergyses well and (at least for me) would be really fun/entertaining to play this kinda of pirate/rogue/bandit deck. Also, i've noticed that Erilun's Favor spell has some kind of bug that doesnt allow the player to see the area of effect when casting. It would be nice to see that fixed even if Tortuns dont get buffed. Edit: Archieved so far... -Tortun favored got some rework! Empower: Speed ability has been removed and got Empower: Defense instead. Although it would be better to see him with some supp abilities, is nice to see that at least, we have been heard . -Tortun Galesinger got a -4 nora cost buff. Also got pilfer and assimilate in adition to banditry in the second ability line. -Tortun Hawker got a -4 nora cost buff.
Gunbattery is p-cool imho. I would appreciate the buff, but i want them to still be forced to be played as a split. Which is what the KF bonus/stability does to a degree. Before risen grenadier was gutted, FS/SL put some work in for me. Also agree on the broadside speed. After the loss of his 1 speed(kfbonus) he cant get the ap to double tap without being split with KF, and i haven't used him since. I feel tortun favored should nora shield other tortuns to combo with the turtle ability, but honestly anything is better than the way it is now. Tortuns do need some love, but i'm not keen on how it should be done. Nice to see a fellow tort btw.
Dont get me wrong, im not saying stability should be removed, but as the way things are now, the fact that you cant buff Tortuns Speed nor play them as FF KF plus the other problems make them something unplayeable. Some tortuns must receive a base speed buff, now that they cant be buffered via spell/ability/faction bonus. I also agree in the fact that them should be forced to be played as a split. Also added a Gunslinger change sugestion on changes list.
Things I love here: tortun favored being more support focused, so we actually have decent support broadside getting +1spd more liberal use of the new tortuns trade fire traps going away I will add, in order to make tortuns cost effective, I think that they should all lose 1 def, and then tortun shell has +1def added to it, but stays at the same cost. This is needed because all tortuns are paying way too much for their defense right now, and IMO tortun shell is too expensive ATM cause it gives you ponderous AND stability, for only turtle (and amphibious but that's pointless). So this way tortun shell becomes a non-sandbag, and all tortuns become normal-costed. Also, it's easier to remove some of their defense.
In regard to the current state of tortuns: Gunbattery is actually really strong. Added to by... Use roots like carniverous vines. Tortuns have quite a lot of knockbacks, which you can use to deal 5/10 dmg to the rooted champ on the turn you root them AND the turn after. Furthermore, being able to keep them in one place allows you to set up for next turn mitigating the fact that tortuns have very low ap most of the time. In addition, gunbattery can shoot someone who is rooted and have a guarenteed chance of murdering them. With eriluuns, tortuns trade, horn of order (and if you're feeling silly/fun, light as a feather and swiftwind) tortuns can gain a very large amount of ap in one turn, from out of nowhere. Use this to surprise people, activate the insanely OP combo attack abilities, and most importantly to be able to deploy a guy from the runedock and immediately give it enough ap to attack someone, I.E. deploying hawker, tortuns trade + invigorate + eriluuns favor = surprise extra attacks AND a whole new hawk atack at range 5 + however much spare ap yuo gave it. Now here's the real fun killer trick with tortuns. Horn of order removes ponderous from any tortun you put it on. And 5 tortuns now have pilfer. So what you do is: put horn on to remove ponderous on a non-pilfer champ. Invigorate a nearby pilfer camp, then pilfer off the horn, invigorate a different pilfer champ, pilfer the horn again. Repeat until you have horn of order on your most back-line champ that has pilfer. Congratulation, your tortuns no longer have ponderous, and you still have a full invigorate ready to go on the last guy who got given the horn. Whenever you deploy a new pilfer champ, give it the horn, for insta refreshed invigorate and to kill it's ponderous.
Ok after playing my torturn BG with tons of success recently I think you guys are being to harsh. Torturns are amazingly powerful right now. Tremir Craghide is borderline OP. All of torturns CC is what makes them so good. Gunslinger + Groundpounder + Inventor + sledgehammor all provide amazing utility. To be fair Torturns don't play like traditional BGs. They are slow. You will get rushed. Everything is defensive. But the CC + powerful range torturns m,ake up for it. Essentially Gunbatterry, Mortar, and Broadside force the opponent to engage you to stop their insane damage. Once they come your CC locks down their champs as you procede to mercilessly slay them. Torturns do clutch on Captain and Tortoruns trade needs to be handed out to more units. Also Transport is amazing.
I agree. With Tortuns, you have to accept the fact that you will be playing down at least 1 font all game long. Don't rush fonts - accept the font deficit and play the long game.
We do need more ships though for sure. Release the Gyrunt and the Dread Mow high damage high range units with the abilities of Torun Transport. That is what the theme needs. In additioon to buffing Tortun Favored fixing the KF spell for Tortuns it currently is broken. Also Tremir is broken please nerf.
Yeh, i definitely agree that if Tortuns get buffed at all, Tremir needs to get nerfed. As it is he holds them together.
Keep in mind that this is my opinion and i might be wrong: Yes, tortuns champs are strong (some of them could be better, like Tortun Favored, for example), but most of them are really expensive for what they offer. This plus the fact that Tortuns' BGs are surelly gonna have -1 font at least the 1ยบ half of the game makes really hard to keep your champs spawning. I was wrong, for sure, in the fact that i took Tortuns as an unruneable theme. They are playeable, so i'll give you guys the reason in that aspect. Anyway i think that tortuns get rekt by almost any decent ranked BG. Another big issue of tortuns is that you depend a lot of Tortun Captains and Tremir, it's really necessary that some other Tortuns (preferably supps) get the Tortuns' Trade ability. I think that these champs are what makes Tortuns BGs playeable. Also, having more champs with Tortuns' Trade would make the BG more themed. Obviously if Tortuns get buffs Tremir must be nerfed. He's really OP even now at days, where tortuns are not what they used to be. If Tremir gets nerfs without having the tortuns some buffs, they will prob be unruneable. BTW: i noticed that Erilun's Favor has some kind of bug that doesnt allow the player to see the area of effect of the spell when selecting the ground for casting. I'll add this to the thread. Thanks for the feedback!
Indeed. If Tortuns get buffs, Tremir would be insanelly broken (even more broken that in the present).
Ok after playing Torturns today i'm come to a conclusion. Torturns arn't bad they are just hard to play. Why? it's because with low speed and ponderous approaching a enemy is nearly impossible. However thry do possess amzing CC and range damage. The problem with a defensive theme is that the opponent will never approach you. All the high level players I go against back safely out of range build up their forcesand come in to attack with a usually decive blow. Torturns have the tools neccessary to play a defensive style the problem is it straight doesn't work. Defensive styles don't work in a game like pox with so much varibility. Literarly everygame I've won against good people is because their omega attack failed. Torturn Transport helps alleviate this problem a little because he allows you to pick up all your injured torts and prevent the opponents attack from killing you. So does Portalmage with her ability Charge Portal but we need something which punishes the opponents for the incoming massive attack or forces them to engage. A Tortallen Transport with Deep Dive would force the opponent to engage the Torurn army. Why? because if that Transport Picked up Two Torun Motars Deepdived close to enemy shrine and unloaded that shrine would be severly threatened. A Tortallen Transport with 5-7 range and high damage would punish the opponent for engaging because they would suffer a lot of damage from a champ which is nearly impossible to one round for doing so. In addition any surving Torts can hop on. So What am I suggesting? Something Like Mangleshell's ship the Rotmaw KF/SL Nora cost: 120 HP: 70 DEF: 4 DMG: 14 SPD: 4 RNG: 5-7 base: Transport (15 nora) Unload (0 nora) Amphibious (1 nora) deep dive (10 nora) Soul trapper (8 nora) attack physical (2 nora) upgrade set 1: viloence charged rank 1 (4 nora) Death Charged Rank 3 (9 nora) upgrade set 2: regen rank 3 (7 nora) spontaneous regeneration (14 nora) What this champ does is punish your opponent for sitting back waiting to power turn and then wiping out your crew. If and when they they pull the power turn this unit will scale up to crazy damage and suddenly your opponent will be facing an incredibly tanky huge hitting monster and the ragtime group who didn't die. This should be more than enough to make the comeback or at mininal force the opponent to focous him down in the powerturn Saving your army.
I really like the idea. I would make it a FS/SL champ instead, to fit with Mangleshell, and also i would give it Revere: Mangleshell with some cool ability atached to it. This way people would have to choose between Tremir BG or Mangle with Rotmaw BG, making it more fun to build and allowing to see more variety instead of insta-choosing Tremir. Getting deep dive on transport seems pretty nice too, i'll add it to te thread.
Tremir Craghide's ship the Gygurnaut KF/FS Nora cost: 120 HP: 70 DEF: 4 DMG: 14 SPD: 4 RNG: 5-7 base: Transport (15 nora) Unload (0 nora) Amphibious (1 nora) deep dive (10 nora) attack physical (2 nora) escalation (12nora) upgrade set 1: Sentinal (8 nora) quest damage (10 nora) upgrade set 2: regen rank 3 (7 nora) Combo attack drain (6 nora) Overkill healing ( 4 nora)
This also seems nice, i also think it should have the Revere: Tremir ability, but this one would only be a good adition IF Tremir get nerfed.
Well, i disagree with that. It does not really complete any kind of role: is not a good ranged, is not a good kinda-melee champ and his supports capabilities are not good. I think that this tortun is the one that needs reworks/buffs more than any other (may be Tortalleon Pygmy or Tortun Broadside?). I really feel that he needs more support abilities, as Heal or Heal Mass to be usefull and also, ignoring the fact that i could be wrong with what i said, replacing the Empower: Speed ability is a must, as it is clearly the result of a bad designed rune.
for sure empowered speed needs to go but nora shield on this baby is epic. He usually gets off 2nora shields before he dies which is a ton of nora.
