troll'n

Discussion in 'Ironfist Stronghold' started by OriginalG1, Jul 28, 2016.

  1. Hierokliff

    Hierokliff I need me some PIE!

    Tried it and with a few tweaks, but hmm its hopeless for me. Was impressed over how tough Earth Mover did get with a tinker and the rock defiance. added stonearm sash on silverclan hoplites, worked also very well. but its such a lategame playstyle i cant get it to work in pvp. i even lose skirmish games with your deck, thats how bad iam :) Think i did get 1 spare part to work, and then it did go of course to the wrong target. removed all trolls and made it a construct/elemental Rock Defiance BG instead. so far its not even beating skirmish.

    noticed my deck had avg rune cost of 60, so changed again and again, and added nora mines to it...
    dont dare to try it in pvp yet, but atleast iam beating the crap out of skirmish games with rock defiance / spare parts deck. allthough not a single troll left in it.
     
  2. aseryen

    aseryen I need me some PIE!

    Haha this is what I use to beat dailies and skirmishes most often, there's a FW/IS CloneMatter Stonearm sash bg that's even more challenging to pull off.

    You're also playing more focused players in pvp than I would normally que with. Hopefully in a PS4 flooded poxnora there's a larger plataue for players to try these bags in. Although it should be cake in skirmisher...even against all the Titans or Serkan; this is without stalling to take advantage of the ai as well.
     
  3. aseryen

    aseryen I need me some PIE!

    Glad you tried out the bg. Hardly ever at my computer to play Pox lately
     
  4. Hierokliff

    Hierokliff I need me some PIE!

    It did go pretty ok in pvp i just had to learn the flow of the bg better. would rank it as a bit weaker still then any normal IS BG, 25% winratio in ranked pvp. noticed i had made a huge misstake not using the Marsch Troll as much, its a real good meat shield. and i used Rock Forger a bit too much, the +1spd for 5spd units are very nice.
    trying Earth Golem now, its a silly good tank, just so immobile. an extra dwarf handler behind him to spank and rev him up, makes him move alot better, but then its a big nora investment. (Manic dont care about lumbering or chasms, so dont get small units near chasms) have had some fun fights with spare part in pvp, its tricky to almost stop heal as a player and instead focus on position the next champ in place to get the spare part bonus. spare part + rock defiance is fun, its good that there are so many players running doom, drown, vertical push...else i think i would win more often.
     
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  5. aseryen

    aseryen I need me some PIE!

    Yeah Marsh Troll, Rockforger, and Earth Golem are some pretty solid runes. I like Rockforger the most because of Geogenesis but the abilities on Earth Golem are just too nice to pass up in a Spare Parts bg.

    Consume is great for Spare Parts, it is why I have a Lich Spare Parts bg so that I can control the death of specific units more.

    I always try to get Groble out asap, Immunity:Fire is really quite nice and power attack is great; especially when you can still cast Tales of Valor on it to amp it's dmg for a few rounds before maneuvering more constructs and Rockforger in place for Spare Parts and a consume to heal/bestow. Rockforger with Consume is nice since you can maximize Spare Parts using forger; consume a construct occasionally to gain it's abilities. Mason's Spire on Rockforger with Immunities and Power attack from Groble/Earth Golem is insane.

    Enduring Aura from Silverclan Hoplite is nice on Rockforger, and perhaps not frequently in pvp but you can potentially get Split onto Hoplite/Earthmover. Enduring Aura stacks on itself so the copies all benefit each other; and Create Chasm is taken off cd when a new Earthmover gets Split.

    I have a lot of fun building these bgs because there's always a need for exchanging this rune for that even if it disrupts the frequency in accomplishing other goals in the bg.
     
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  6. Wolvon

    Wolvon The King of Potatoes

    you should include my new grint.... Grint Monotone
     
  7. aseryen

    aseryen I need me some PIE!

    Grintmaw Monotone, Solution 15, and Dwarven Harlequin all seem like great additions for some RD bgs.

    Harlequin and Mechanized Band are going to be a lot of fun together in Trolls. Grintmaw Singer is going to benefit a lot and anything to justify running Sepulcher of Kings with Rock Defiance is enough to get me excited.

    Solution 15 should be great for Spare Parts overall and can't wait to get Rock Defiance on this rune. Hell rune Spare Parts with any Solution 15 Construct/Dwarf bg and it looks great!

    Grintmaw Monotone - I like that it has attack sonic and for the most part is a slot filler. I think I will mostly run it in a Construct Sonic Amp bg with Deafening Aura and Dissipate. Paired with Metallic Slag and Spare Parts!!! Also can't wait to split with SP once Identity Crisis is fixed...sonic Amp bestowed on any unit from Mechanized Band with Deafening Aura and Fascinate should be annoying to say the least. Monotone itself may not do much for the bgs I have already but definitely is the missing puzzle piece for a few I've wanted to run. Even IS/FW, but really it is another Marsh Troll outside of a sonic bg which there is nothing wrong with. Marsh Troll is one of the better runes for Rock Defiance, the role is already filled though so I think this rune becomes a choice substitute over running a duplicate or even an extra Troll. Still I am really excited for Monotone in Sonic Amp which will absolutely have ToV and since this is such a cheap rune there are a lot of good reasons for running at least one.

    Damn where is this expansion...these runes better not be a hassle to get lol I want to play all three on release.
     
  8. super71

    super71 I need me some PIE!

    Problem with grints is they relied on high health and high defense, problem with poxnora as a whole is their are multiple easy kill options and all abilities pretty much ignore defense. Grints are primarily slow, their range is sub-par and damage is terrible.
     
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  9. Hierokliff

    Hierokliff I need me some PIE!

    Their problem is that they have almost no defense, they get silly high damage and health but no defense its all about rock defiance which is really bad compaired to other ability defense, and they are slow oh so immobile.
    Totally agree with the part about ignore defense abilities that dont trigger rock defiance either
     
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  10. aseryen

    aseryen I need me some PIE!

    Definitely agree here their pseudo 1def from Rock Defiance doesn't really do much, although it is nice that Rock Defiance doesn't increase dmg from attacks that interact with Def like Render. That +1HP is essentially 1def when attacked with abilities that do proc RD. Rock Defiance is absolutely better than DEF though, considering RD units within range all gain that pseudo +1Def(+1maxHP)&+1DMG) when procd.

    Their speed is definitely a problem, UD with 8spd?! Trolls without a Toll Bridge?! What's goin on...'Dimension Troll Bridge' or a Ferren Hideout esque rune will be great for them since it seems that their mobility(which effects range and engagement frequency) is certainly subpar to other themes. Fuuuuuck where is a goading mask on a Troll?! Antagonize and Duel on base for a Troll, let's go...I'd gladly design some Grintmaws/Rock Defiance runes; I just don't want to make them only Trolls!

    Not a fan of runes now beings designed with an upgrade line as a handicap line, dissipate/lethargic for U2 on Monotone? Why not just give us a Troll that has Declare Traget but has no dmg. Dissipate and Lethargic are in the same class as Declare Target because it can sustain AP. If you have Lethargic you get more poke from range, Disspate, more melee engagement. The catch of these two abilities is that the AP to fill the gap and deal the most dmg is to spend AP which is still a handicap For Trolls.

    Declare Target on a Troll...guarantee that will fix many problems...let's just hope a Declare Target Troll doesn't become so wtfOP like Grintmaw Shaman was, Ofc bring Dampen back would greatly improve Grintmaw(the Bane Shift tier version of Rock Defiance) and make it more playable as a pure Grintmaw bg.
     
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  11. aseryen

    aseryen I need me some PIE!

    Gift: Spare Wings and Winged Purpose kind of fixes mobility but that's best in a Construct/Troll bg

    Then there's the conflict of which Gift unit to include; Kingmaker or Splinehawk...and really with Buffer Kingmaker is the best option for RD. Issue is that Kingmaker is a solid gimp for RD despite Bubble. No dmg and it's a solid target that does not proc RD; unless equipped with Stonearm Sash which is too circumstantial and most often not equipped or best equipped on another unit that would otherwise scale tremendously better off the STATS. All in all slots for Grintmaws/Rock Defiance bgs is pretty tight so even if they were to get some OP runes, weighing which runes to have slotted is still going to be a task.

    I want to play Trolls again to contribute with some bgs but I just like splits haha Vampyre/Lich and Spare Parts (more specifically Consume/Spare Parts) is so much fun. I may play some FF once the expansion is released.
     
  12. Hierokliff

    Hierokliff I need me some PIE!

    Worst mobility fight so far was vs UD minotaurs, they did get like 30-40dmg all from relocating with their silly relics before going to combat. normally UD is just a loss, but this was a silly loss. it was like old time with dwarf catapult when it did cost 0 AP, then +3dmg per relocate between the portals, just silly.
    But still i rather fight the minotaurs then 57-75nora costing flying super SL dragons with aoe spam
    I disagree there are no grintmaws that holds a slot in a BG, any new troll, construct, element could easy fit in instead of the meh runes we got now.
    they are so below dwarf and barbarians, the good thing is my rating is below 1k now so i get matches very fast.
     
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  13. aseryen

    aseryen I need me some PIE!

    It's not that new Grintmaws designed won't be deserving the slot; it's that they absolutely will and it's only been since this last expansion that running x2 of each Troll has been changed to substituting one or two for a single slot. Fact is most people don't play highlander bgs but I think until there are enough champion runes to play a full Highlander bg a theme cannot be compared equally to more established themes such as Elves, Demons, Dwarfs, Elementals, even Constructs. 20-25 champions runes for a theme seems to be enough where there can be the pure runes that embody the original design the 'Grintmaws', and then there can be further runes that shape and have formed with those that exist. A Troll Tinkerer, wtf do we need another Bard for when Constructs are the sub-theme of Rock Defiance and obviously benefit from class: Tinkerer. The Tinkerers in SP encourage split play with IS/SP Constructs and since Rock Defiance is a subtheme of Constructs that essentially means a IS/SP Rock Defiance bg can be made. Not saying that Monotone should have been a Tinkerer, it's just that the overlap effects the themes that don't get designed for. Had Monotone not been a Bard and designed as a Shaman there could have been a better Bard designed that worked with Constructs more or not, really Grintmaws are at a state where any combination of STATS and abilities is a blessing from the Pox Gods; I don't like that, but at least we have enough to substitute for. This is all with the condition that Grintmaws are going to be the only Trolls designed and Rock Defiance won't break into other themes which I'm opposed to.

    Don't get me wrong Monotone is going to be great! just the way Sealer is for the theme, however I'm not being fooled that Dwarfs/Elves have far more runes designed for them, and that those abilities could have been placed on another race to accomplish the same thing while potentially freshening up a few themes. I understand the classic races will have more designed for them; but design wise it should not be so far off to have had some kind of standard baseline for each race to have...20 champions runes 5 spells 3 equips 1 relic. Doesn't have to be so static like that but if the only way to balance what you have is to test it and there is little being added each time a test is taken, it just stagnates things.

    Trolls can break into many themes. I always saw Grintmaws similar to Barbarians (which are essentially Protectorate Humans) and then there can be many other orders and sects of Trolls throughout Poxanthuru similar to Marsh Troll or Elves and their many orders. Thematically every theme can have at least 1-2 if not more of their races designed for FS. And as far as turncoats are concerned there are always going to be traitors in war so having Draksar fighting for Leoss does not seem like a horrible idea. There should also be more enslaved units and as always Greys would be nice.

    It's also my opinion that STATs can/should be decided by dice roll then have ability combinations suggested by the community and a voting session taken place. There could realistically be a rune designed and voted on by the community each week/month that could be put into the next expansion. These runes could help with ranked play by creating ban lists or whatever; but as far as rune diversity is concerned every race should have their 'Grintmaw', Collective, Traitor, Spy, and Enslaved units to diversify battlegroups. I think this would also help balancing the game overall since there have been so many eras of Poxnora; voting could quickly fix some areas that were worse than others while also directly giving the devs feedback on what is thought of for each individual ability or combination of abilities. A rune with X abilities on base and another rune with X abilities on upgrade can be completely different runes.
     
  14. Wolvon

    Wolvon The King of Potatoes

    We just have to keep pushing for new grints, so that they can better be able to compete with more developed bgs. I already talked to Sok about montone and the damage potential is looking good.

    However I have yet to push my idea through for a good Grant tank maybe next expansion or during the midterm. You guys should post ideas for a good grintmaw tank, which I think could help the Grintmaw BG utilize Rock Defiance more. I'll be posting more stuff in the future gearing towards a grintmaw tank.

    I'm just glad they took my idea for monotone and im glad about the changes it will receive as well.
     
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  15. Hierokliff

    Hierokliff I need me some PIE!

    The Grintmaw Monotone that is posted is just strange, a bard with range 1-4 and 12dmg base then extra dmg abilities? no support abilites more or less. looks more like a melee+midrange warrior then a bard. with range 1-4, nothing should have such range on basic skills. I know with have Grintmaw gravitone that has it, and it would be an awesome tank if it had something else then resilient, resilient for grintmaws are bad. Its awesome for constructs since they can get tough3, but almost useless for the rest of IS. (tough1-3 is much better since the fullplate can give resilient for a decent combo)
    the other trolls have 7-10dmg so the bard is a stronger warrior then the warriors and brutes? :) its because trolls dont really need dmg as basic ability, they need abilities to make them survive, if you can get them to survive the easy outdamage most other in IS with Rock Defiance.


    argh i need coffee, i sound silly grumpy!
    i hope the grintmaw monotone will be amazing!
    but really we dont need so many new grintmaws, they just need other abilities that work better together.
    Team-
    Trolls
    Eat
    All
    Meats
     
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  16. Wolvon

    Wolvon The King of Potatoes

    I agree I made a tank and I'm trying to put emphasis on survialbility but they chose my grint bard, so I had no choice to stay within the dps theme. Maybe next time.

    However you can never have too many Grints how is the theme supposed to get better if you don't add more members to the race or to rock defiance in general ? I don't think we need more barbs or dwarves yet we keep receiving them. They are not bad additions but they are already a part of a pretty extensive theme. I was actually hoping they would add two Grints to this expansion.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
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  17. OriginalG1

    OriginalG1 I need me some PIE!

    upload_2017-3-24_16-44-45.png
    I have not been playing much but this was my most recent build. DMC grants some much needed big range, his bombs do full damage can which is awesome if you get medal of valor rolling. Earth ele is in here for a throw back reference, I do use him though. I rarely use rock collection. I actually use miner to create tunnels points from my shrine to fonts, it takes a while but is a useful back up plan.
     
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  18. Hierokliff

    Hierokliff I need me some PIE!

    Oh yeah I want more grints, just not sure if need so many new, if the ones we had did get tweaked so they get better synergy with eachothers. atleast for me the Grint is about rock defiance and getting hit and keep being alive and getting stronger and stronger for each turn that goes.
    Grintmaw shaman is great, its just a lil annoying to learn starshine-positioning, and that he must be so close to the tank to get it to work. while Grintmaw singer is a horrible mix of abilities making him cost too much and i have no idea if is melee,ranged,dps,support or just nothing :)
    Marsh Trolls are also great, maybe would wish for tough instead of regen since rock defiance is kinda regen, but hey 59nora for 50hp with pummel,regen,10dmg

    oh well i hope the new grintmaw is gonna surprice me alot and make Troll-TEAM work :)
     
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  19. Hierokliff

    Hierokliff I need me some PIE!

    Noticed miner is alot better then it says, nora miner 3 gives 9nora per turn and not 6, so a miner+2mines = 21nora/turn, an overkill but fun in skirmish games to be able to drop champs all over the place. sure its 91nora used so it takes 5/9 turns before being really efficiently paying itself. I think @Sokolov are going to change the deep miner class:none to class:tinkerer so he might be seen in a little more with constructs also to help trigger their ability.
     
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  20. OriginalG1

    OriginalG1 I need me some PIE!

    I have gone into this before, when you looking at nora generators take into consideration the matches momentum and all forms of nora generation. Looking at the nora ability and saying it takes 5/9 turns to pay for it's self is correct, but your shrine gives you (i do not know for sure) 45 nora a turn and I think a font gives you 12-14 nora a turn. If you have the advantage and then you deploy a nora miner your shrine will pay for nora miner by it's self, next turn.
     

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