UD early game

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Agirgis1, Oct 3, 2016.

  1. Agirgis1

    Agirgis1 Forum Royalty

    Hey people,

    Today I'd like to discuss the direction UD has taken. From a balance perspective it seems to be very win early game no skill at the moment, rather then a healthy mid-game power increase for more "skillful"/ fun game play for both the opponent and the UD player.

    Now I still win a couple of games late game, and its awfully fun when I do, but quiet a few of my games i find myself easily able to win in the first few turns, and that's just not fun, it feels cheap and unearned.

    I heavily hesitated making a post about this because I really didn't want to throw my faction under the bus knowing the mindset taken to balance the rest of the game , and to balance UD is completely different. ( And probably what caused the huge increase of damage in UD's early game in the past months, every buff/nerf is like an outsider's perspective trying to stay unbiased.)

    Please do consider changing the direction of UD from just super early win and enemy can't counter if draws are good enough. Because in the long-term I can see if this goes on ( even if it's great right now), it will lead to further reduction of UD's late/mid game for early game;which will eventually get nerfed when people are finally fed up leading to an overall weaker UD faction in the long-run.

    I currently always heavily avoid talking about anything balance related, because I feel it's not place to put my opinions on matters that don't concern me. But i decided to step out on this topic because i'm afraid a none UD player speaking of this will be ridiculed and ignored as a rager/salty, which would heavily deter from solving the problem and further progressing the meta in a healthy manner.

    Thank you.
  2. badgerale

    badgerale Warchief of Wrath

    It's a good discussion to have.

    UD has always been an early game faction, but it does seem to have moved further to that extreame lately.

    I suspect, as I mentioned in game, that the cheap, targeted, spells are a large part of this - mindstorm and mindslicer - as has simplification of champs which means there are less defensive abilities.

    With 70 noras worth of spells you can usually kill most champs with a single hit. 15 damage from mindstorm plus 18-22 from slicer, plus 14 from an average champ hit. Which puts us into FS style drag and drop champ removal territory.

    I'm not sure this is such a healthy place to be either.
  3. Lacapi

    Lacapi Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Agree completely. Don't play UD, but if you dont feed contest champs to some boundless enthusiasm-champ+random spell early you are Gucci. But some maps/draws makes that very hard.
  4. RasielCZ

    RasielCZ I need me some PIE!

    The problem is that we are kinda forced into this position.
    With nerf of flame strike and fire bomb to cd 3 unless you have harbs you are forced to go in fast.
    Basically if you are full melee and your opponent is not at 5 champs on board you are at a great disadvantage that can pretty much be only offset by your opponent positioning really poorly.
    This was not a problem in the past with asssasin, but now global effects are so widespread that relying on stealth is suicidal. I don't remember a game where me or my opponent couldt destealth a champ anywhere on map on demand.
    super71 and SPiEkY like this.
  5. Agirgis1

    Agirgis1 Forum Royalty

    This is basically the point I'm trying to convey, we are being forced to some degree to win games in a fashion that requires no skill most of the time. Which is strong but also limiting at the upper level, because the more skill something requires, generally the more powerful it can be played correctly ( not always but generally).
    super71 likes this.
  6. Agirgis1

    Agirgis1 Forum Royalty

    I think a pounce spell was a big cause to this, because these spells weren't an issue to this degree before. Keeping in mind if we address these spells in anyway, that will be the first step in moving UD away from a kill potential style, or at least a spell-based kill potential style. And such changes would have to be correctly counter-balanced with a different style to play, or it will simply leave a void in UD's arsenal.
  7. Agirgis1

    Agirgis1 Forum Royalty

    Generally the only map that i feel has any real issues right now is the UD lava map, since an early 7 leaper or 8 speed champion first turn will easily contest both fonts (top), with 1 turn to spare to deploy and reinforce the font advantage.

    That Map with the 2 huge craters on each side is also very flyer-based, but i'm not trying to get in to a discussion about maps.
    Plays remain on UD related note , and thanks :D
  8. badgerale

    badgerale Warchief of Wrath


    It could be the replacement of the DEP with Boundless Enthusiasm for mobility is part of the issue.

    The DEP requires at least some set-up, in that it needs several champs out to function... with BE you can just charge forward with your first champ and apply spells to give AP and damage as needed.

    Perhaps we should be asking for nerfs to UD spells and buffs to the support champs.
    Woffleet, Qucas, Etherielin and 4 others like this.
  9. chris0024

    chris0024 I need me some PIE!

    I agree on this. Another factor that has lead to more of a reliance on winning fast is the lack of cleanse. If i am not able to finish the game early on it gives my opponent more chances to draw their debuffs and once that gets started it's downhill for me.

    If anyone plays hold em they will understand this analogy; that when you have a strong early hand you bet strong to push the weaker opponents out before they have a chance to beat you. Ud is in this position currently where we have to win fast or watch our chance of winning disappear.
  10. Agirgis1

    Agirgis1 Forum Royalty

    First i'll address your boundless enthusiasm vs DEP, Enthusiasm is generally a very early rune with no set up; but decent mid game usability.
    Old DEP lied exactly in the opposite side, Very mid/late game rune with deploy set-up( as well as demon requirement in BG), but decent early game usability.
    This is literally a summary of what happened to UD, though it wasn't just 2 runes, but the way boundless replaced DEP was basically how every other mid/late game UD option was replaced to an early game variation.

    Secondly, you suggested we nerf spells and buff utility; You are planning on nerfing damage-based spells, that are very high kill potential for support units, what issues do you believe this will cause for the current UD?
    What Kinda of support units are you actually thinking of? Because simply saying support units can be completely useless elements being added instead of core UD runes.
  11. Agirgis1

    Agirgis1 Forum Royalty

    Lack of cleanse is definitely an issue, and the reason we don't have it is because the balance direction wants the early game. So it's understandable with our current path that was chosen by the balance team.
    And ye some games we will be forced to rush,no matter how much skill you have, there are certain BGs that you simply can not even begin to deal with in the later half of the game as UD. Whether that's healthy or not, is not for me to decide.
  12. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Please define "no skill".
  13. Agirgis1

    Agirgis1 Forum Royalty

    Very good point, forgive me for using "skill" as a replacement for what I assumed was common knowledge ( a common flaw in productive argument).
    What is skill in Poxnora?
    There's basics such as positioning, nora management and general decision making. The part of skill that can be addressed by balance is decision making, and general outplay-ability.
    What I mean by this is, given a certain scenario in any given game, its the ability to make the best possible move with the current tools provided to you.
    To further touch on this I'll give an example:

    If a unit has been stunned, you can not outplay anything with a stunned unit, what you can do is either use the tool that you would have prepared such as a cleanse or a counter stun.
    Predicting the opponents moves, though critical, is useless if not coupled with sufficient counter-play (skill) and the tools (balance) to do so.

    So an early game vs UD, you may know that if you step in to the font, you will die. But what tool or even counter-play do you have to use in this situation so early on in the game?
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2016
  14. Keku

    Keku Well-Known Member

    Spectating UD players, you seem to be the only one who doesn't favour this brainless rushy playstyle of UD, which is rampant atm and although i tend to win most games against it, it's not really fun to play against.
  15. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    I think framing skill as strict mechanical reaction ignores the importance of subtle decisions that aren't overtly adversarial. For instance, just because moving into a font means that a champion will likely die doesn't determine whether or not such a move is in fact bad. Defining skill as "counter-play" runs the risk of treating optimal decision making in an inaccurately narrow light; all action that affects the game outcome is counter-play if both players have oppositional goals, i.e. their own victory. Something isn't counter-play, then, if it doesn't interact with the opponent in an objective (that is, pursuant to an objective) sense, not a numerical or field sense.

    To address the stunned example: decision making doesn't start when the champion becomes stunned -- the champion was intentionally placed in a position where stun becomes relevant -- and even then, counter-play doesn't constitute only a cleanse/no cleanse binary, but any range of options which influence the extent to which an opponent advances their aims. "Counter-play" is often placed in linguistic opposition to "non-interactive", but I think interaction should be taken in a less literal way. Any interaction occurs if the relative advantage between the players is affected -- that is the chief sign of an interaction. Players will be in better or worse relative positions in the stun scenario based on other factors besides the presence of cleanse; for instance, if the defender has more range, they can position to threaten a counterattack and thus deter opposing followup. That is not to say that the stun doesn't matter: it remains the focus of the decision making. But it's important to recognize context construction, even more so than direct tool application, as a decision-based determinant of the final result, and for that, blunt counter-play is not only unnecessary, but a threat to the subtler skills in Pox.
  16. Agirgis1

    Agirgis1 Forum Royalty

    What you said is correct, you said nothing wrong.
    But if I am to be as politely blunt as possible, its absolute garbage.

    You are theory crafting, and not actually dealing with the REAL situations; not what can happen, what actually happens and will continue to happen.
    I'd compare you to a person on the side-lines of a basketball match theoriesing angles and optimal amount of god knows what every game.

    Is that person correct, yes his information is perfectly well collected and true. But the players out there are not even on that frame of mind, nor ever need to be.
    That's why things often don't work out as they are theorized, even by some of the smartest people to ever live. Because real life is a lot different then theory.

    Please, do not take this as personal attack, you are very knowledgeable and well informed. But your use of the information is not very relevant to real usefulness.
    I'd like to forgive any insulting language, I attempted to word this as politely as I could, mustering whatever little IQ I may or may not possess.
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  17. Braxzee

    Braxzee I need me some PIE!

    Uhh Murk Demon helps with global damage for stealth. Besides that a lot of UD players do use skill and do become strong later on. Goblins are very different in that regard. On the other hand I do not see why a super aggressive BG means there is no skill being used. Being super aggressive is a strategy in itself. Why let the opponent build up on power? or get fonts? or put out 4 r 5 champs to just get spell spammed or used for a life force?
  18. Agirgis1

    Agirgis1 Forum Royalty

    You are perfectly correct, super aggressive gameplay as well as a very early game orientated BG/style is a game tactic.
    But what I'm concerned with is currently UD has the potential to use this specific tactic much too effectively.
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2016
    Woffleet, Anima26, Etherielin and 2 others like this.
  19. Tweek516

    Tweek516 I need me some PIE!

    I dont think he's saying a super aggressive theme etc is a bad thing, he just dislikes the movement of the entire faction to become more aggressive.

    Edit: Agh ninjad
    SPiEkY likes this.
  20. super71

    super71 I need me some PIE!

    Awesome thread, and it explains what most people have been thinking for a long period of time. It also saved me from making a thread saying how ud players are bad and just rush to win.

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