UD early game

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Agirgis1, Oct 3, 2016.

  1. davre

    davre The Benevolent Technofascist

    Well said, though the whole "taking no skill" element detracts from the overall conversation. I know I am in the minority, but I enjoy 60 turn games much more than 8 turn games. Glad to see you back and I hope this stays on topic so that a meaningful conversation can take place to give UD a less frontloaded curve, though I am pretty sure very little will be able to be implemented until the next full expansion.
     
  2. Braxzee

    Braxzee I need me some PIE!

    It needs to be. That is the nature of that faction. It is also good for the player base that like to quicken games as well. If it look at what I play, I play ST all the time with once in a blue moon split with X
     
  3. Agirgis1

    Agirgis1 Forum Royalty

    I think my wording or why i keep referring to skill is a personal bias I have, probably because it's the reason I play the game, and whenever I feel its not being required of me a part of my mind spits at me for not needing to improve myself. ( Because you can never stop improving in anything, if you feel there's nothing left to improve upon, you are doing something wrong.)

    I'll attempt in future posts to avoid such wording. Thank you.
     
  4. Agirgis1

    Agirgis1 Forum Royalty

    Well, I believe this is an opinion, and I can't realistically argue against what you believe is right for the game. ( not in this scenario at least) ( and that's okay)
    But I do believe more people would favor otherwise.
     
  5. JellyBerry

    JellyBerry Forum Royalty

    What kind of approach would you take towards this? Which runes would you change (if needed) so the faction is more in line with how you want it to be? I'm aware recent additions have given UD a much stronger early game (or at least easier to pull off), so would addressing these make it less prevalent? Or could something else be done about it?

    I like UD as a faction, and it's probably the one that has changed the most in regards to how it's played within the two years I have been around. So I'm really keen on reading what sort of steps should be taken to achieve a difference in this instance as well as the expected outcome. Also for the sake of argumentation let us pretend any current mechanic or change suggested will be used in their full potential by competent players.

    (video maybe?)
     
  6. Agirgis1

    Agirgis1 Forum Royalty

    I am currently gathering other peoples opinions, but I will definitely post my suggestions within the next 3 days, with the input of people's useful opinions on the matter.
    The reason I didn't/won't post it right now is because this needs a lot of careful thinking before I dare put a suggestion out under my username that I don't believe is 100% the correct course of action.
     
    JellyBerry likes this.
  7. Agirgis1

    Agirgis1 Forum Royalty

    This is true, but if UD remains in its current state, the pounce change will not change much in terms of current UD early power.
    It gives the none ranged UD units the ability to effectively get off an attack ( damage that usually wouldn't be possible to inflict after the first font contest of the game.) then simply followed up by a kill spell. Literally almost not changing the early usefulness, but definitely weakening its mid/late game power.
     
  8. JellyBerry

    JellyBerry Forum Royalty

    Considering the amount of things current pounce bypasses, at the very least it would offer less limitations on how to face it. Though it's true that self relocation remains.
     
  9. Agirgis1

    Agirgis1 Forum Royalty

    Don't get me wrong, pounce should be fixed, its extremely unbalanced. But that specific fix isn't going to fix this specific problem.
     
    Etherielin, JellyBerry and SPiEkY like this.
  10. davre

    davre The Benevolent Technofascist

    Spiders are about as strong as they've ever been with the caveat that their lategame relies on 15hp summons in a meta that is calibrated against low-hp summons (swarm/medal of valor/dreamcrusher/that psychic ping dude/ ritual of x).
     
    JellyBerry and SPiEkY like this.
  11. davre

    davre The Benevolent Technofascist

    I'm not sure how helpful this will be, and I think the TL;DR of what I am about to write may as well be kill or die, but:

    I think everybody can agree that UD is the melee faction. Whether or not this is 100% factual when it has always had access to things like Grimlic & Harbingers etc. is debateable, but as an idea and as a starting point for building your deck, this is how it is for most people.
    A consequence of this is that UD's gameplan, more than any other faction in the game, relies on dictating where & when that first engagement takes place. A mixed-range army could hypothetically stand back, wait for their opponent to engage, and react; there is a lot more risk involved if a melee army tries to do this. UD is not the only faction with the tools to make that decisive first move: SP has harpoon, ST has gale/swap, KF has elven strategist, SL has transfusion, etc. But UD has a lot more at stake if they don't, because the turn that they engage is the turn where they are most in control against a mixed-ranged army that will make adjustments over the following turns in an effort to repel them. If it isn't clear, my central conceit is that - relative to other factions- UD loses flexibility in choosing targets after it has engaged, and that initial point of contact is absolutely critical.

    The tools that UD has had to create those favourable circumstances has naturally varied over the years, but there are 4 runes that have been UD staples for most of its existence, and all 4 of these staples speak to that initial point of engagement:

    DEP- this one is pretty self-explanatory, beckon demon allowed UD players to make unpredictable plays at any stage of the game. Here is a Sepulcher video if you don't know what I am talking about:
    (check out from about 6:00 to 11:00 for both offensive and defensive use before any meaningful engagement happens, also for any of the "back in my day" contingent there are some fun costing examples going on, I especially like the 35n fiery ambush)


    Demon shield- by preventing most ranged damage, this has allowed UD to stall until it has the opportunity to create a favourable engagement, and hampers reactive attacks after the demon has engaged.

    Sacrifice & Retribution: both of these runes have a similar impact on the game: trading board presence for a high impact turn.

    These four runes have two things in common: their roles in UD have become marginalized (yes, there are currently UD players with high ELOs that do not run retribution - as crazy as it sounds, they can win without it), and they serve both offensive & defensive roles.
    DEP - can take a champ out of the battle as easily as she can put it back in.
    Demonshield - can stall against ranged champs.
    Sac/ret - can cut your losses in a fight you are losing so that you can engage again with another set of champs, hopefully with better results.

    Together, these runes gave UD fluidity. Much like KF, UD was able to shift the field of battle at will, to quickly alter matchups. It gave UD a consistent midgame.

    Those staples are being replaced by a new set of spells that ignore defensive potential while doubling down on the offense: why sac a champ and lose board presence when you can spend 35n, deal an additional 14 damage with a double attack, and heal your champ to near full with mandate? Why deploy a relocation champ when you can close that gap anywhere, any time, and still have the nora for a spell with boundless enthusiasm?

    This isn't a call to buff the above staples, but UD's defensive potential has been cut out (though only in DEP's case has that been by design) and it has been compensated by bolstering its strength - offense. UD still relies on setting up that first engagement but it has become about the lowest common denominator - the place: wherever your first deployed champ is, the time: now.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2016
    Fentum, Woffleet, poinl and 9 others like this.
  12. BurnPyro

    BurnPyro Forum Royalty

    It was the outcast
     
  13. BurnPyro

    BurnPyro Forum Royalty

    Manic is also balanced. Especially when it procs nora gen effects.

    Just saying
     
    JellyBerry, Etherielin and SPiEkY like this.
  14. Agirgis1

    Agirgis1 Forum Royalty

    Here are some suggestions to moving UD's power from early to mid and possibly somewhat late-game, while not heavily effecting UD's playstyle as an early game player (yet).

    Boundless Enthusiasm to lose pounce and homing sense, and gain a 2 CD variation of relocate ally/demon ( preferably ally so the spell remains core for all UD themes).
    The relocate will remain for only 6 turns, and have 5 or 6 range
    An effective anti-summon mechanic, on a spell or VIABLE champion. I'm not talking the current garbage that does not even properly deal with any Mid/Late game summon based themes.

    UD faction bonus reworked to +1 dmg per unit deployed (Range restriction removed?) ( possibly huge issue with spiders, summons should not be included.)
    I think the Faction bonus rework would present a great scaling mechanic to UD while some-what reducing early game kill potential. This is a huge suggestion and believe should be discussed very heavily, as it would be a rather huge change to UD.

    This is what I have currently thought of, it isn't everything that would need to happen, but they are significant.
    This would slightly move UD away from "Melee damage faction" to just "Damage faction".
     
  15. Agirgis1

    Agirgis1 Forum Royalty

    Good points, back to the drawing board for me.
     
  16. badgerale

    badgerale Warchief of Wrath

    I would rather look at +5 noraing Mindstorm.

    Then slimming down the DEP to make her cheaper -- she could afford to lose multi-attack or go down to 6 speed. Either would put her at 63 I think (from 71).

    Boundless enthusiasm is slated for a change anyway (due to the pounce rework), perhaps it could give something that benefits friendlies?
     
  17. Agirgis1

    Agirgis1 Forum Royalty

    I'm not quiet sure this would change much. I'm not even sure this would increase her meta presence (significantly). It definitely would not address the issue for none-demons as well.
    But I do admit at the same time as everything I mention, a 63 nora DEP would be quiet a strong champion.
     
  18. davre

    davre The Benevolent Technofascist

    One of the key goals for a proposed change to UD has to be to put some form of support unit back into goodstuff decks. The following is my own subjective opinion, but I think that the faction's wonky curve applies most to demons and I wouldn't bother tinkering with any of the other themes: the spider racial gives them a gap closer and weaver provides all the support the theme needs, minotaurs have a well developed relocate/evasive mechanic, goblins could stand to have a support unit but the theme is designed to be inconsistent, I have no interest in developing beasts/elementals as FF themes, and everyone else is a subset of demon.

    It's also worth noting that UD had 3 persistent global/wide area defense runes in mindslicer obelisk, orb of protection, and breath of ash. Ash was already never run because the opponent benefits from it, and seism has taken the other two out of most UD decks. I think that the most important marker for transitioning UD into a less rushy faction is going to be when goodstuff decks start dedicating non-warbanner slots to runes whose primary purpose is not enabling kills.
     
    JellyBerry likes this.
  19. badgerale

    badgerale Warchief of Wrath

    Yeah, I think we're really only talking about UD meta here. Themes by there very nature are synergy orientated, which means a certain amount of champs need to be in play - so there will always be a mid/late game focus.
     
    JellyBerry likes this.
  20. Baskitkase

    Baskitkase Forum Royalty

    I have never liked the great divide from UD decks that include harbs and those that do not.
     
    Anima26 and JellyBerry like this.

Share This Page