UD early game

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Agirgis1, Oct 3, 2016.

  1. Etherielin

    Etherielin The Floof Cultist

    It's part of the reason I continue insisting on re-releasing Harbs the same way Doomies have been done. No need to change them at all, just make them available.
     
    JellyBerry likes this.
  2. Pedeguerra

    Pedeguerra I need me some PIE!

    Hahahaha, you guys.
     
  3. ChiaoLung

    ChiaoLung I need me some PIE!

    I kinda doubt it's going to happen. Probably would have by now if it were going to.
     
  4. Agirgis1

    Agirgis1 Forum Royalty

    Ye I'm aware my suggestions may have been a little off, please forgive that because I rarely talk about balance.
    But I do accept it if my opinions are wrong and work towards improving my mindset in regards to balance.
    Thanks.
     
  5. Theoutcast

    Theoutcast Member

    Well, I imagine most of you know how I feel about this subject. I think that UD is good for rushing...and thats about it. If you want to nerf their rush (even more than they did last expansion)...then give them stuff to compete with other factions mid/late in the game. However, like most UD nerfs...I'm sure they will just nerf the rush and keep the other stuff garbage.
     
    Fentum likes this.
  6. GemmaXylia

    GemmaXylia Forum Royalty

    idk if anyone said this yet but pls nerf pincushion. That guy makes me sad
     
    Tweek516 likes this.
  7. Baskitkase

    Baskitkase Forum Royalty

    What's to nerf? He goes down like Monica unless you're deploying all basic attack ranged vs UD... and if you are, well.
     
  8. GemmaXylia

    GemmaXylia Forum Royalty

    Eh? He has decent HP and is anti range/anti melee as well. Maybe I play too many things that haven't got enough aoe damage abilities but I can't off the top of my head think of a rune that costs the same nora ish that would beat it in a 1v1?
     
  9. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Wandering Zombie, Essence Devourer (sorta the same cost)
     
    SPiEkY likes this.
  10. Tweek516

    Tweek516 I need me some PIE!

    Can't really count ED in that though.
     
  11. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Well, he starts out costing more, and then starts generating nora and costing less.
     
  12. Tweek516

    Tweek516 I need me some PIE!

    Sure, which is why you cant consider in a vacuum. Well, you can't consider any rune in a vacuum - but especially not him.
     
  13. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    I think it's fair to say he costs the same nora-ish if you're doing comparisons for a straight up fight. It's not a rigorous metric.
     
  14. davre

    davre The Benevolent Technofascist

    In KF alone you've got aurora inspector, colossal boa, deadwood strider, elven shade, garu hunter, vashal quillback, and wilderkin that can go toe to toe with him and come out ahead depending on how both players play it. Pincushion is a good champ with a clear role. He can be annoying to face. He is not part of UD's early game problem.
     
  15. GemmaXylia

    GemmaXylia Forum Royalty

    You can't really use ED in a 1v1 comparison because it can't function without the input of other runes.. it destroys itself 1v1..

    I also think pincushion wins 1v1 against WZ, after the first one dies you can ignore the wandering part?

    It's slightly off topic anyway because pincushion is just too efficient/covers too many roles but isn't why UD rush is so good..

    Sheoul demon / osarius guy / boundless enthusiam / mind storm / melee dmg increase equip is what usually rushes my face in the first few turns
     
  16. GemmaXylia

    GemmaXylia Forum Royalty

    sorry double posted D:
     
  17. Scrijordan

    Scrijordan I need me some PIE!

    what roles does pincushion cover so well yea he a strong champ but nothing to nerf tbh
     
  18. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Nope, WZ actually wins without even losing his first life, assuming they both start adjacent, with 0 AP, and that Pincushion gets the first attack.

    p w p/w
    59 50 59/50
    -11-3-2 3ap -4-3-3 2 ap 43/40
    -11-3-2 1 ap -4-4-3-3 4 ap 27/26
    -11-11-3-2 4 ap -4-3-3-3 1 ap 0/13

    I doubt that movement during the fight will help either side too much, because Pincushion needs to stay in attack range to use any of its passive damage, and WZ has a DoT, so avoiding trading blows helps him. These numbers are with Banner, but without Banner, WZ would end with 8 HP, and Pincushion would still die on the third round. The numbers get worse for Pincushion if WZ goes first, or if the Pincushion engages on WZ when the WZ has AP (so, most combat situations).

    WZ is a real good champ. (Before any goes "wow OP!" though, keep in mind that, first, Pincushion is paying 14 nora for an ability that does nothing in this fight but greatly increases it survivability in other scenarios, and second, that WZ has a rank 3 resistance to Cushion's only damage type, but there are more damage types out there.)

    As far as referencing ED, yeah it needs another rune to function well, but it also generates effective nora by getting played and you will never see it without that other rune, so eh -- ED/Yard is pretty much 1 rune that takes up 3-4 slots.
     
  19. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    I had a big old response to this, but it got lost in a days worth of internet outage.

    Here's the gist: theory and reality aren't different things, theory is an explanatory method, if theory doesn't seem applicable then that's a fault of a specific theory not theory per se; I have experienced everything that I said, it's how I feel when I play this game, or any game for that matter; if people aren't factoring in the potential outcomes of their decisions, then it shouldn't be a surprise if they get lit up for it and feel helpless, but it doesn't mean that those decisions aren't there, or aren't important.
     
  20. Agirgis1

    Agirgis1 Forum Royalty

    You know I really like this reply, it didn't feel dense to read and required little effort on the readers part. I can usually understand your texts, but not in an efficient or worth while manner, more like in a I need to read whatever the hell that was again.

    As for what you actually addressed, I understand what you mean , I myself factor in a lot of decisions simply on my first deploy of the game. Including what can happen and what will probably happen due to what I am facing. But again, there are still games vs the UD combos where you know what will happen, but have no possible answer. Think FS early game hippos-spell for mid-font, but somehow, even less counter-play.
     

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