So, I know that for myself, I rarely use Split Heroes if can help it (unless they fit specifically into a theme like Stitched, Kanen, Leoss, etc.). I know there are also some Split Heroes that work well in some split bgs because they have very synergistic abilities or what not (Spirit of the Mountain/Zoalt works well in SP and/or KF Beast splits imo). My first question then is this, are there any Split Heroes that you peeps feel don't really see play BECAUSE of being Split Heroes (unable to be in Full Faction bgs)? The heroes I feel this way about include: -Timothy (designed for Zombie bgs, but I have yet to see a good Zombie FW/FS bg), -Ruubgaal (Now he can fit into the Arroyos, but... meh), -Zeventruck (wat do, seriously who uses him?), -Argol/Sixul (I've seen them used, but can't for the life of me remember what the factions used were), -Magnus the Fallen (I tried so hard for so long to make a FW/IS group based around him, I just couldn't make it work), -Jyx (Ironically I think he'd fit into a Vampyre or Firk bg the most), -Jek (I suppose a Strig/KFBeast bg, anything else?), and lastly Ash (I see people talking about him, but rarely get a chance to see him actually used). My second question is, am I just missing every time someone uses one of these Split Heroes?
Timothy was used in FW/X splits that focused on Zombies from FW and another faction for support runes. I haven't seen that in quite some time. Jyx I've seen used in UD/X splits that use UD champs and another faction's support spells.
Sixul is used most in FF FS. I've seen him used in a FS/UD split as well, but he's not a split hero. Argol I've seen used in FS/X psychic splits. Jek I've seen used in beast splits in addition to flyers. Most common one I've seen him in has been KF/SP, but it's been a while.
Hero and Split Hero - Merge Split Heroes into normal Heroes, set limit to 2 heroes per BG plus Mythical, FF heroes in Splits? Splits in FF? http://forums.poxnora.com/index.php?threads/cactuar-crate-planar-disturbances.23743/ I prefer splits but strongly dislike lore-thematic bgs mainly because of how runes have been released. It's just inconsistent or what you get is what you get however the past several expansions have done a lot better on split releases. That still leaves some themes left as is, which is kind of a double whammy of what you get is what you get and the theme being inconsistent and left to be patched later on. If an entire rework is being suggested of Heroes it's a damn good time to take a look at every faction and see what runes were released that represent each faction. Annex was this way but has been removed, FF/Split Heroes, Banners, and whatever abilities that are unique to a rune or two but given to each faction. Renovators could also be looked at since they fall under this category for example. From here I think the selected runes should be reworked so that they strongly push meta and are what is somewhat expected in ranked play (which is why I mention banners) or have these runes thematically designed for PvE. I find the way current runes are being designed(consolidated) has very little ground other than to push meta. Currently I don't design bgs around heroes but I do like having them in my bg for some reason. The simple fact that they are Split or FF heroes is kind of why I may switch it in with a runes here or there, just because I'm able to. Pushing towards PvE isn't necessarily any different than designing the rune for meta if the future meta is based off of Heroes more. I see it as a reversing of roles. Currently runes are designed to fit the meta and then are further patched to adhere to the new meta, with a redesign hopefully the patches will be to create more cohesion with Heroes. Battlegroup design isn't set in stone but perhaps having 1Champion(Hero) 1Relic(banner) 1Spell(?) 1eEuip(?) as kind of given slots in a (themed)bg that may be the push in the right direction some runes need. Ash the Bandit Prince KF/UD Garin the Sharpfang SP/SL Hraken the Bloodbow IS/UD Jek the Silver General KF/ST Jyx the Shadesworn FS/UD Kiergana SL/UD Magnus the Fallen FW/IS Mangleshell FS/SL Matriarch Sarinda FW/UD Mosharn the Barricade IS/ST Shardseer Argol FS/ST Spirit of the Mountain KF/SP Timothy the Vile FS/FW Tremir Craghide FS/KF Voil King Ruubgaal FW/SP Zeventrech the Last SP/ST Zoalt, the Sky Serpent SP/UD Tl;DR Heroes as a whole should be looked at to lay a stronger foundation for further rune design. Pox is known to have large gaps in it's lore only to be filled with full themed releases that do little to address what has already been designed, patches are relied upon to further place runes were they need to be but in the direction of the newer more meta runes. Having Heroes as a stepping stone for what runes are patched towards and designed after is the best way for players to gain knowledge and retain it after each expansion/patch.
Well the mention of the Cactuar Crate was good, I'd forgotten Sok had mentioned that already. On the other hand, I'm honestly a little lost as to what exactly you're getting at. I'm not ever sure where to start asking for clarification. I THINK, that you are hoping for Heroes to be used as the baseline for rune design, and that Heroes should all first be redesigned with that intent in mind. In particular, a push towards runes being designed with meta in mind, rather than thematically designed. If that is so, I'd really only agree so long as thematic design isn't sacrificed too much (As a fictional example: "I don't want to see Sonic Elemental become a melee beater simply because the Sonic meta is lacking in that. Sonic Elemental working as a fast utility champ in the meta and its own theme would be much better.")
Yes that I also would not want Sonic Elemental to be a melee beater as your example states. The consolidation process that is going on might put it in that role but that's not what I mean be reworking Heroes. It's to push away from your example and further consolidation that I want Heroes to be reworked. A lot of runes won't be effected by changes to Heroes, or they can be, that's up to sok and how he ultimately designs Heroes. No matter the direction though I think that Heroes should essentially be seen as what themes are built on. I'm sure that with Heroes being looked at there may be a new hero or two that will be released following the change to fill any gaps the initial rework doesn't address, which is why I think taking a look at more than just Heroes is in the better interest of the game. With the crate in mind and Heroes being looked at I'd imagine Heroes being the 'grey' faction that some games have. Runes able to be used in every faction, or Wrath and Protectorate Heroes may be the final route. For example Argol would become the Amp Hero some themes need, Mangleshell beomes a Hero for Tortuns, Amphibious, Mutants, etc. The changes to Heroes may very well be minor and in now way game changing, however there are enough runes that would fit the mold of Protectorate/Wrath grey runes to support a larger change to Heroes. If their faction becomes colorless or they get an additional Upgrade line unique to Heroes or whatever may happen this is the time for a more cohesion than just Expansion releases. I wouldn't know how to patch Avatar Heroes but patching runes would seem easier to do for meta and PvE/tb(shoeboxe)d if themes are more clearly defined top down. I've already suggested a lot which alienates what I'm saying. I just don't like leaving Expansions to be our dose of lore and runes, then patches which really only push meta or further shoeboxes runes to be entirely reworked from their original design. I'm not sure where PvE falls on how important a rune is but I think that it should have more value than what is meta.
This is really the only part I disagree with. I think in order for the game to be open to new players, lower rarity runes need to be what things are built on. Higher Rarity should be heavily specialized (the more time you spend in the game, the more you find you niche and the more chances you have to get Legs and Exos), whereas Lower Rarity should be more general, to let you get a feel for things. So, I'm coming at that part from a totally different angle.
I just don't see how Heroes can be reworked if not to push themes. What do you think a third upgrade path would open up for Heroes? I kind of understand not wanting Heroes to push themes. I figured a third upgrade option for heroes would be somewhat of a 'Deckbuilders Bestow'. While in the rune manager the Heroes third upgrade line is the upgrade options of the runes in the current bg or a set list of abilities to choose from. This would make Heroes splashable in themes imo and able to spread mechanics that would otherwise require a new rune design. That's how I would think Heroes should push themes.
Sorry, a bit of a knee-jerk response on my part there. It's hard to really explain why I feel that way, you'd have to look at all of the posts I've ever made to understand (I don't expect you to). That would be an interesting way of doing it, though it may be a bit much in terms of work (the developers have enough as it is I think). On the other hand, I have always preferred it when Heroes have at least one ability line that really changes what kind of theme/style/synergy etc. they support. Ironically, it's almost always non-heroes that have Upgrade lines like that, rather than Heroes. So, I agree in principle, though maybe not with the technicalities.
I'll do some searching and check what's been said. Seems like a lot of conversations are rooted from older posts that I've barely scratched the surface of.
Maybe some changes will average everyone's knowledge out. I'm mostly waiting to see what the player made expansion has to offer, I don't see much happening in terms of any major rework till then.
One point I'll make is that, if Split Heroes stay the same, I'd really like to see the limit raised to 2 per deck. It seems really stupid to have 2 Split Hero Kanen, 2 Split Hero Stitched., 2 Split Hero Tortun etc., yet only being allowed to include one of them in a given deck.
Hey, this is my AP denial BG. I haven't played in a while but this might also work with ruubgaal instead of jek, but so far really liking him. Upgrades: Chronomancer: TP1/deploy charged 2, lots of singleston spells (as I like to run most bgs like this regardless), ap denial with stall, pseudo flying font runner with tp Contained Thrall: Nokhando + Assault, nokhan do is great when enemy champs have little ap! Crystal Phoenix: aura 3/favor3, often your opponent does not have the freedom to really focus and ends up damaging various champs Dead Fairy: init2/rabid, been thinking about going rotting blows. Just solid overall. Ferren Master: Frost Aura/Weaken Spells. Also has nkd. really solid, causes slowed 2 in one hit because of the aura too. Frostvein Witch: debilitate/drudgery, amazing champ simply debilitate on range 6 and drudgery on same champ. Inkblight witch: Curse 2/Blind. Curse 2 is a high dmg ranged attack, oblivionshield smilar to nkd vs low ap. Provides curse for slowing Jakei elementalist: not sure about this, he has 4 turn duration slow nova which I thought would be good but don't know how good he is in practice. Jek: Provision Defence/assault, 2 defensive equips and block+unstopable from provision is really good, AP denial gives him time to ramp up or makes it hard for your opponent to react when he isolates an enemy champ. Skeletal Excavator: Blockade/crushing charge, obviously provides seism which is usually why you'll deploy him, but also good vs players who like to run double mobi/imps etc Tortun Bokor: Annex/Coven, don't know why but I just like this champ? he's on the cheap side, hard to focus down, flexibe range, is a witch and has a funny ability Yeti Druid: Heal 3/Freeze, very expensive but provides divert and heal which is great for similar reasons as block/nkd/oblivion shield. Abominable semi-detection. Just a good fit imo I find mos support rune irreplaceable, maybe lockdown now that its back to 20 nora, and I don't think star catalog was too amazing
