Upcoming FW faction bonus and boon Change Pre-Discussion

I would say round up that way there is always a minimum of 1. As to priority I would say runes with the highest cooldown be awarded.

Actually now that I think of this it could involve quite detailed on how this could porentially work.

 

So you guys are really pushing for the nora gen thing, huh?
Bleh, screw this, Im done trying to play a balanced game.

 

FS: you gain 6n each turn.
ST: Your champions have +10hp.
UD: Your champions have +4dmg if their max range is 3.
FW (proposed): You gain X% of the nora cost of every real champion destroyed, and CDR divided across all your champions in CD, to a minimun of 1.

Am I the only who feels this is making the game unncesariously complex?

 

no

but they like small changes instead of big changes. or rather, big changes are only for screwing things up. small changes are for fixing things.

 

You might get better results if you actually start suggesting other things beyond no to Nora.

For example I liked the idea of additional room reveals. I still think this would be a really nice and simple bonus

 

For a flat Nora bonus to work we would have to be careful. This would affect low cost champions significantly like broken bones. It would have to be low enough to not be overly abusable by the FW player. As a mirror the cooldown reduction could be weighted more towards the higher cost ruins on cooldown

 

My only argument is the removal of disease immuntiy, Zombies would be utterly ******** without disease immunity. They'd do more damage to themselves with aura than the enemy.

It's not so much the balance side of it, its how disease is integrated into the faction. That huge desecration AOE all of a sudden hurts your own champions, Corpse Pile would damage anything you deploy near it, Festering Wounds and Plague would disease your own guys and the list goes on.

Removing disease immunity would throw up a truckload of issues and solve absolutely nothing, i havn't heard a single person complain about undead having disease immunity since i started playing. The fact it is even being considered is beyond me.

Start with the faction bonus, and see how that affects things, remove certain aspects of boon but right now you are suggesting changes which would warrant an overhaul of the entire faction, not one or two abilities.

 

Pedeguerra I understand you're not good at english but F*CKIN HELL MAN
Just stop. You're not a FW player, this isn't you're place, and you literally have NO arguements- NOTHING other than an OPINION.

So you better suck it up kiddo & gtfo, back to the prancing forests you and polltroy came from

As far as the bonus and all these big ass changes....

Listen. I don't post anymore. Why? Because I don't care. I always cared, but I can't afford to care anymore. If I care, I care too much. And then I try too hard to relay an idea into existence. Ideas that I believe only Yobanchi pays attention to and puts into consideration. The greens don't do that. Yobanchi does, and while he has his own ideas, I trust banchi and kalasle with the future of this faction at this point. It says alot.

In fact, most of the time banchi or kalasle or hell even netherzen will say things so I don't have to say them. What really encouraged me to post this time was the sheer horrible discussion with pedeguerro.

Seriously. Tell me WHO is this "top FW player(s)" that runs dead eater. And WHICH CHAMP??? WE'VE ASKED A THOUSAND TIMES. ANSWER IT YA MORON.

Until you DO- - - NORA GEN ALL THE WAY BABY Firking DEAL WITH IT

 

Preaching on, friend; preach on.

 

Shut up Tea, Im Warfoot ingame - thats right, your terror.
I was going to be civil about this, but since you took this discussion really low, by cursing at me and what not, I would say I didnt expect anything less from you, since you are a terrible player and most of the time you are just one of those people we farm all day every day. Besides you are most known for being a noob zealot, those are the worst kinds of posters. Im glad you dont post anymore.
As I said, Im out of this thread due to sheer nonsense of these proposals, but I couldnt care less anymore.
If people dont want a balanced game, screw it.

 

Please, lets keep the thread on track and not be derailed.

@potatonuts I think the list pretty much ends there as far as disease problems.

As stated a lot of those can be fixed simply by modifying them to enemy only (Festering Wounds/Desecration).
Plague isn't run now and I would only expect it being run with a disease eater unit but I would instead push for a change to it instead.

Most of the problematic champions consist of zombies like the corpse pile and lumbering zombies. However, with the revamp a LOT of zombies lost their auras. With the theme review I would say zombies would be the ones that get a disease eater worked into their theme along with more auras and less spd.

 

There was definitely a few more things i could have added to that list, and the fact that runes like Plague are unused is kind of irrelevant when we are discussing making it even less viable.

If we modify these spells to be enemy only is that going to change their cost? Essentially that makes them better spells so they should cost more, the only reason i run desecration is because it is cheap enough to drop both on the same turn.

It isn't the spread of Auras across champions which would hurt zombies, its the fact that they are all melee and their low speed makes positioning their biggest enemy. If i move an afflicted corpse into melee with an enemy, every other zombie moving into melee or attempting to overcome lumbering and get in to melee next turn is at risk of taking disease damage from his aura.

I think giving them disease eater and reducing their speed would be a gargantuan nerf. There is no way in hell the 3hp per turn heal zombies can get from disease aura 3 will sustain them through turn after turn of ranged barrages while they try and get into combat (which can already be enough of a problem), and with the +1 cooldown on disease breath i certainly wouldn't waste that to heal my cheap mooks for 5-6 hp. That isn't even mentioning the increase of instant losses when all you draw is your now even slower zombies and can't even cap a font before the enemy is at your shrine.

If anything zombies are the only FW theme that is actually strong right now, just leave them with disease immunity, why fix something that isn't broken?

 

The cost of spells would stay the same.

Zombies would have disease eater worked in as part of their racial

That seems like it would fix pretty much all issues inside the theme.

A side effect would be that you would have a more difficult splashing nonzomb melee with lumbering auras.

In his case it opens up design to have current runes that grant boon to give disease eater instead.

This increases synergy.

 

If we are talking about a straight swap of boon for some kind disease eater racial than i am all for it. The suggested reduction in speed is what worries me, i feel that zombies as a theme are already teetering on the edge of being too slow without their support units and spells, the first few draws of the game are so crucial if you draw crap it can practically be a death sentence.

 

Oh the speed thing wouldn't be across the board.

I was referring more to cheap meat units.

For example flesh light at 5 spd would be more powerful in my opinion due to manic/lumbering/hp.

Same for afflicted bringing him down in nora.

 

Ok that i can deal with.

Fleshblight with 5 speed sounds pretty reasonable, how much would that reduce the cost? What were you planning on doing with Afflicted? he seems pretty efficiently priced as he is.

 

I just lost all my respect for Warfoot. Ignoring the garbage he's spewing, let's get to the hypocrisy.

Said the guy with the proposal that didn't make any sense and didn't have a way to back it up at all.

There

Good bye hypocrite. I won't be letting you off with an FQ next time.

 

As per banchi's request. I suggest we lose most of our immunities and fearless, etc. I simply advocate we keep immunity to disease for the sake of simplicity- not having to change EVERYTHING in our faction just because someone decided we didn't need immunity disease.

Even skeletons use disease modules with black death.
Spirits don't use disease damage but it's less of a problem for them with incorporeal capability.

Might want to differentiate between spirits and your regular organic undead, like zombies skellies n liches... If anything, vampyres not being immune to disease would make the most sense.

I'm not calling any proposals here, either, just helping discussion for once.
And I'm open for discussion if it's worthwhile.

 

The problem with boon is that it is essentially a global lump ability on a huge swatch of champions within FW.
It takes up an ability and bloats the champion which is why I feel a lot of people see FW units as underpowered.

Essentially all undead have a +4 nora hanging over their head for no other reason then flavor and swingy abilities.

I think zombies could have disease immunity worked into their racial and the few (maybe 5 runes) that need slight changes be done to benefit the faction as a whole.

 

As for the whole nora refund on death, my $0.02 (*Warning: text wall ahead*):

At one hand, we should establish some premises. First, we could use FS and SP as comparative as to what the exact values for the new FW bonus could be. While we could argue whether in which tier we could rank them ("No, FS is more OP! No, is SP!"), I think we can agree the new FW bonus should not create more nora than either of these bonus, considering both of them have been nerfed because were too strong. Anyway, second premise, even if the new FW bonus could generate a similar amount of nora, it would be weaker than either because is backloaded and dependant on the opponent to some degree. FS just happens, and SP is linked to deployment.

- But death benefit! Even at 1n per every two deaths you would generate over 9'000n each turn! Is OP beyond belief!

There are two important points to consider about this. First, by modifying the FW bonus, the staples of death benefit would lose their short CD and would rely on the new bonus in order to reduce the CD. The afflicted corpse would go from to CD 8 for starters, and broken bones would go to 7. And second, apparently runes that spawn real champions, like graveyard or wake the dead are programmed to be summons. Try to assemble a death benefit bg with only cd 7 champions and no spawn spells or relics (basically, try to play a death benefit bg in any other faction), and tell me how it goes. Just for giggles, tell me, when was the last time you saw altar of votaev in play?

Death benefit as we know it would go suffer drastic changes, and trying to claim it would break this new proposal is like telling rocks and sticks would be too powerful when we introduce swords and shields into the battlefield.

Now, can we agree on these topics? If we can, I think we could move forward into specifics.

For some reason, we can not see how many turns each match last on the profile. Lets stick to the old 14 turns as average. I do not think this is true anymore, but is the only data we have right now. Now, how many champions could be deployed on 14 turns? One each turn? Simply put, there is not enough nora to sustain that, and we need to use nora on spells and relics. One every third turn? That would be 4-5 champions through the entire match. Too few. Can we agree on one every other turn? That would be 9-10 champions. Now, how many of these 9-10 champions would die through the entire match? Lets assume half of them will die. So we would have 5 deaths through your average battle per each side.

These numbers are important, imo, because they give us a basis to made a proposal.

In 14 turns, the FS bonus would trigger 7 times, so they would gain 6n × 7= 42n.
Considering an average cost of 64n, SP would get a deploy refund of (64×0.08= 5 × 9 =) 45n, plus the refund of 5 deaths, or (64n×0.04)×5=10n. Total, 55n.

So, considering these numbers, the new FW bonus should generate between 42n and 55n during 14 turns. Considering 10 deaths in total, and adding 3 deaths because death benefit, we could made a suggestion:

FW: You gain 4/2n every time a real champion is destroyed, and the cd in your champions is reduced by 3/1.

With said numbers and 13 deaths (above the proposed average), FW could generate 52n through a regular match, which would be above FS, but below SP, so is balanced. We should also consider more than half of these deaths are coming from the FW side. And last, these are just average hypothetical scenarios. Death benefit would be the best scenario, but themes like vampires or witches would generate way less deaths (if they are planning to win), so the nora generation would be lower.

So, guys, what do you think? We could adjust the numbers if there is solid evidence of the average numbers being wrong. We could use some other parameters to estimate the bonus if there are solid arguments to contradict the premises I wrote at first.

Or is broken just because you know it in your heart?