Vampyres, Why do they suck? Can we fix them?

So for quite some time now i have been experimenting with this theme and combining them with different modules or factions in split decks in order to try and make up for their shortcomings. My first attempt involved a large amount of UD champs and eventually just turned into a Bleed theme so i scrapped it. Since then @Gnomes motivated me to have another go at it when i saw him playing with a similar bg, since then i've come up with some more ideas and I'd like to run all this by the FW crew to see what everyone's take is on it.



The main idea is to throw your vamps in with an aggressive UD spell set and make use of that +2 damage from the split bonus though sadly i feel this simply revealed to me that there is much more amiss here than a bit of damage, in fact there are a few problems which seem to make the 'theme' quite ineffective.

• They usually die before they can take advantage of Life Siphon - This isn't really a flaw in the theme but just how the game works, people one round champs rather than wear them down. More often than not the relatively squishy vamps will get one rounded before they can even think about healing with Life Siphon.
• There is no 'lynchpin' - It's just a few units who share races and have similar abilities, Greater Vampirism is the only thing that holds them together and it certainly doesn't justify running them as a theme.
• They all do the same thing - Pretty much every champion is a melee beater with life siphon, there is very little opportunity to make a play when all you can do is run directly at the enemy and punch them in the face.
• CC destroys them - Carrying on from the last point, the fact that pretty much all they do is basic attacks means that any kind of CC shuts them down, prevents their ability to heal and usually ends with them dying shortly afterward. Being a FW/UD theme doesn't exactly make Cleanse abundant either.
• Blood Crests suck! - Your opponent will counter that relic and kill whatever champ it was supposed to protect 90% of the time, that is a statistical fact. That or they'll just back off and force you to move out of range of it.

Finally there is the big one;

Themes which play to stay alive have no place in the FW playstyle. This is the sad truth of it, the FW bonus gives us 60% decreased cooldowns on our champs and therefore a theme which is designed to constantly heal up in order to stay alive is going to be playing faction bonus free more or less all the time.

Now this can obviously be offset to a degree by splitting with UD or other factions but the fact is that you are going to be playing with half a faction bonus pretty much all the time and that immediately stops the theme from being competitive.

As for solutions, i'm pretty much stuck beyond the idea of reworking the abilities to make each champion a bit more effective. Wailing Banshee is in my opinion the benchmark of what a vamp should be, Fascinate helps her engage, Vaporize helps her mitigate damage and Life Siphon allows her to heal through that damage. I'd really like to see more vamps with the ability to survive being focused in such a way that allows them to heal up again with Life Siphon. I've tried and found many abilities that do help but none of them exist within the theme or in many cases the entire factions.

Nexus Aura for example is perfect, it allows them to share the damage, prevent any key champions being killed off without counterplay and usually do this in a position that allow them to counterattack next turn.
Other abilities such as One With Nora, Calcify, Horrific Aura, Perseverance or even just some stat boosters like Defender or Frightful Aura would be great for keeping them alive long enough to take advantage of all that Life Siphon.

@Sokolov I know there is a lot going on on the development side right now so I've no idea if you even plan on looking at Vampyres any time soon but I was hoping that you might take these criticisms into account if you ever do decide to make some developments in that area. A Demonvein split theme would be pretty awesome too btw

 

first off let me say thank you for your input, i love talking theory and when people make good arguments with thought and evidence behind them.

first to the bg itself:

Have you tried Archfiend? he is a crazy ass mother Firker. he costs very little but is incredibly strong in a split, 66 nora for 62 hp if banner and a ud champ is out. and frightful blows making him very hard to even 2 v 1.

Next i suggest Price of victory, it makes your champs a bit tankier, gives them the extra ap, and only cost 40! nora!

Lastly Rain of blood. its great for powerturning. not only does it allow for a destealth and burned it also gives your vamps 3+ dmg!

one kinda cool combo is to run all your champs in, then masocism your champ at the back who has a blood crest near him and then sacrifice him the turn after. see as they cry

now to your thoughts:

I agree greater vamporism is their only cool consolidating ability and its a bit lackluster. the blood crests are definitely nice but they are very easy to kill with all the sism and anti relic stuff going around. give it 21 hp? also the crests take 5 dmg now instead of 3 and their range is 6 although the Ability on the crest itself says exactly the opposite.... it says takes 3 dmg and is in 5 spaces... i agree the mvps are banshees! ill write more later when i have time

 

I think a vampyre with relocate relic and masons spire would be a great addition would allow you to move around your safe spots and give your crest seism protection. You could also use haunt or despoil to give your crest spell protection

 

Thats a 9 months older BG I used to play since I retired, I already tried Stitched First for relocate relics, but I don't think it's necessary. I don't play and don't have UD runes to split it properly

 

I've tried more or less everything, I am constantly swapping different runes in and out to see what works best.

Archfiend i dropped because i seemed to just fall into the pattern of running at stuff and punching them, i always find there is something else i need more.

I've found that Drain Vitality seems to do a similar job as Rain of Blood but the effect lasts longer and that +1 speed is really useful. Price of Victory i havn't really gotten anything out of so far, it's good but with Mobi in there i decided to drop it.

 

Most vampyres suck to survive.

 

Do you think part of the problem is that most vampires have piddling damage? Most have 10 damage, with several having only 8 or 9.

Once you factor in defence, a Vampyre with 10 damage is only healing 4hp per attack. And even that is generously assuming that the enemy champion has no resistances, evasive, reflexes or any other defences that will further reduce the damage. Greater Vampirism will take that to 6, but that's still a piddling amount.

That said, even if they had higher damage, Life Siphon offers diminishing returns.

 

I think it's a combination of that and the fact that they aren't particularly hard to kill either. I don't think there is a Vamp with DEF higher than 2 and they don't have any abilities to mitigate damage either.

 

Yeah, that's a good point.

 

Well besides Wailing Banshee, the only other one I like is... Vampyre with Thirst for Battle.

I don't PvP but have you considered Sundered Lands split? There is Bloodthirsty Blade (works pretty good with Thirst for Battle boosting DMG for single player) and Rage Band. There is also Ferocity of Kain Taris, Horrific Mutation, and Taint.

EDIT: Well there is Mysian Lamia that seems nice to me but don't have yet...

 

For what it's worth, I find Thirst for Battle counterproductive and lacklustre. If I engage an enemy, I want to kill that enemy ASAP. Leaving him alive just gives my opponent an opportunity to heal or sacrifice that champion. What's more, Vampyre needs to be attacking to regain hp (as opposed to say using all his AP to chase and engage ranged units). Finally, I find that the bonus just isn't useful. It takes far too long for it to build up to significant levels, and Vampyre lacks any survival mechanism in the meantime.

 

Well, in the beginning it won't have enough DMG to kill anything in one turn so that the build up phase. The survival comes from other stuff... my idea is Horrific Mutation (Horrific Aura) plus the added benefit of +1 DMG/DEF/SPD, Taint (Regeneration 3, Violent is also nice but I would probably use it on Wailing Banshee first), and SL split faction bonus.

Also, Bloodthirsty Blade can be used with intent of destroying it yourself on the 6th turn in worst case (ideally I would be able to soften target up with others and let equipped champion finish it off)!

 

You say that, but run him at 80 nora with a Tempest Crown and he suddenly turns into this borderline godlike entity. If more vamps could be run at 80 that thing would be really useful for keeping them alive.

 

Tempest Crown! ~

 

Some really good posts here, someone above hit he nail on the head though. Life siphon is too expensive for what is essentially a weaker version of regen. Life siphon used to be decent but nowadays who even looks to deal bits of damage over time besides fw, I go for the one shot or nothing.

 

Vampyres need survability to be better, with this I mean (I mean only FF FW BGs, I'd love to the different BGs from UD and FW):
*Elusive
*Evasion
*Reflexes
*More Blood Crests an (maybe Mason or Mason's Spire)

Some ideas of mine:
Shroud > Soul Collector same distance than Desecrated Zone
Blood Fiend > Assimilate, it is something like a big leech
Fascinate > Dark Seductress would fit this role as a charm and possess unit
Scrapper > Bloodtracker (will interfer Scythe Whirl), Vampyre (???, maybe change Thirst for Battle)
Bloodworm > make a stealth unit, Fading Light would fit the most on the theme, maybe even a ability that Stealths when the unit grabs a BLOOD ORB

a new utility unit (i don't see any vamp or already created unit to take this): whenever it grabs a blood orb, it gains a charge of blood, then it can use of the this charges to make a blood crest. would be nice if this unit has Mason or even Mason's Spire

what u guys think?

 

A lot of themes need these sort of abilities, the problem is if we keep sprinkling them around eventually every theme will play the same. Honestly I don't get why vampyres don't have more stealth abilities and dead magic zone abilities. Making vamps themed around dmz and stealth seems the way to go to me.

When I think of vamps I always think you never see them coming before it's to late.

 

An example of a changed vamp with my thoughts

Vampyre

Stats
10 damage
7 speed
2 defense
48 hp
range- 1

First upgrade line: thirst for battle, shadow shift, elusive leap
2nd upgrade line: startle, pounce, masochist for some survivability and because it seems like it would fit

Base abilities

Attack: physical
shadowstrike
rend 2

 

Dark enchantress

Stats
7 damage
6 speed
1 defense
45 hp
range 1

Upgrade line 1: fascinate, charm 2, distract
Upgrade line 2: projection, Hidden dead magic zone, phase shift

Base abilities
Attack: psychic
possess rank1

Annoying font harasser

 

Demonvein

9 damage
7 speed
1 range
2 defense
50 hp

Upgrade line 1: violent, territorial, decapitating blow
Upgrade line 2:kill sense, intimidating, stealth

Base abilities
blood dispersal
scavenger
leech vitality