Video: Q and A with Gedden + Senshu (15/08/14)

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by MentalMoles, Aug 15, 2014.

  1. Gorebucket

    Gorebucket Forum Royalty

    I would imagine that the reduction value of not being able to attack is determined manually based on what else a unit can do. If it isn't, it probably should be. Often passive champs either have secondary attacks, can transform to attack, or have larger (or stronger) than average skill sets. Also, some have a damage stat and some don't, which can further skew their price out of a balanced range. In the absence of the most basic of functionality you would expect from a champ, you kind of have to look at what they are capable of and price manually.
     
  2. Ragic

    Ragic I need me some PIE!

    It really doesn't make sense. If ghost costs less because a champ has no attack, then maybe no attack isn't priced correctly. If champs with no attack should have ghost priced differently because of the other things they can do, then perhaps the other things they can do are not priced correctly.
    It's a 'hidden' way of trying to price internal synergy. But that isn't the right way to price internal synergy. If a champs ability set combos well then you either make it expensive or you gimp it's stats.
     
  3. hsssh

    hsssh The King of Potatoes

    Personally I think that abilities having fixed cost doesn't really work in game like Poxnora, there is just too many possible interactions to make an "objective" judgement on how much each ability should cost. If you end up doing manual adjustments for runes then whats the point of the magical formula?
     
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  4. Centuros

    Centuros Active Member

    It helps to get a baseline.
    Without it, you would have to make a wild guess about what something should cost.
     
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  5. hsssh

    hsssh The King of Potatoes

    Costing at rune level allows you to take abilities out of vacuum and look at whole package. You can see what potential synergy rune's stats and abilities provide, you can see how he would fit in his faction, race, theme. I'd say that costing at rune level is less wild than costing at ability level.
     
  6. Sepulcher

    Sepulcher I need me some PIE!

    lol, so I watched the section featuring my Ghost/Incorporeal question.

    Comments on Gedden's comments...


    "Well it's tricky because, how much is it worth to not be able to attack?"

    It's not worth -47 Nora, so I'm not sure what the point is in bringing this up. It comes across as completely avoiding the question.

    In fact, since Passive is no longer in the game and Attack abilities are worth 0, not being able to attack is currently worth 0 Nora. So confused why this was brought up.




    "Magical damage is special"

    It is only "special" because Incorporeal exists. It's more important to include Magical damage in your BG than any other damage type. Incorporeal creates an imbalanced favor towards Magical as the non-Physical damage type of choice. Conversely, relics/Shrines/Constructs make Disease and Poison the least desirable damage types, but that's a topic for another time. Magical damage being "special" is part of the overall problem.




    "This is an expansion 0 ability, something that's been in the game for 7 years. Why is it a problem NOW?"

    Oh man, this one got me pretty good. The reason it's being brought up now is twofold:

    1) As Moles pointed out, new Ghost champs are gaining this incredible batch of immunities while also possessing good-to-great offensive potential. Ancestral Avenger and Spirit of the Mountain spring to mind.

    2) Because the game is being revamped right now, which I would assume would mean the devs would be open to big changes in the interest of making the game more balanced, more new-player-friendly, and healthier overall to prepare for its re-launch. Changing Ghost/Incorporeal fulfills all three of those goals.

    "Well, it's always been in the game" is not a reason to not change it.

    I'm a little bewildered by this, to be honest. DOG comes in to "renovate" the game and shake things up, but isn't open to changing an ability because it's "always" been around? These are the types of blinders that are holding Pox back, IMO.





    "I like the idea of having to think about things. Like including Detection, or Shatter, or Magical damage."

    Haha, I don't know why, but this infuriates me. The fact that Incorporeal champs are considered in the same category as Stealth champs and Equipment is disconcerting.

    One of the many differences between Stealth/Equips and Incorporeal is that the former have complete counters available. A champ stealths, and you Detect it? The entirety of stealth's benefits are removed. A problematic equip enters play, and you Shatter it? The entirety of that equip's benefits are removed.

    An Incorporeal/Ghost champ enters play, and you use Magical damage? That Incorporeal/Ghost champ still reaps the benefits of that ability for every other non-Magical damage champion on the board. It is not the same thing.

    Also amusing that Gedden likes Detection/Shatter but not Sever Summons, even though they are near exactly the same in their hard-counter level.





    "What's the difference between needing a Solidify champion and needing a Magical damage champion?"

    The difference is that Solidify allows all of your champions to attack the formerly Incorporeal champ, while the Magical damage champion is completely on his own in taking out the rampaging Ancestral Avenger that's 8 SPD-ing around killing everything.

    But to be fair, they are BOTH poor answers to an imbalanced mechanic. :D Also, Solidify did not work when I tried to use it. I'd rather it just be removed from the game and Ghost/Incorporeal get proper balance attention.
     
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  7. Pedeguerra

    Pedeguerra I need me some PIE!

    Ownage mode: ON.
     
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  8. Goyo

    Goyo I need me some PIE!

    Awesome post Sepu :) this should clear everything to the devs. I'm sending your post to Senshu.

    I just wanted to mention that Gedden's comment here, as I understand it, didn't meant "this has always been like this so no problem" but "it has been like this since the beggining, I would like to know why is it a problem now".
     
  9. Sealer0

    Sealer0 I need me some PIE!

    It's always been a problem, just like possesion - cliff diving it has always been infuriating to deal with,

    but devs have always ignored that, so people stopped complaining. The revamp is a good time to fix these abillities/interactions and make them player-friendly.
     
  10. Goyo

    Goyo I need me some PIE!

    He told me you got good points but that they are too busy to make them top priority.

    We need more staff urgently.
     
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  11. Baskitkase

    Baskitkase Forum Royalty

    Great post Sep. The ability cannot go on anything that might tank or park as a roadblock, sit in a font, or has high damage. in other words, any champ who will actually use the ability. I estimate youll get the following amount of green replies: zero.
     
  12. Centuros

    Centuros Active Member

    Ghost really should not be on anything that can use the ability to its fullest. Immunity: all but one damage type (and that damage type not being physical) is too strong of a defense for anything that wouldn't be less than useless without it (like FW's two 4-speed squishy spirits).
    Haunting Grip is almost better design than the actual runes, because if that spirit is immune to your opponent's BG, at least it cannot contest a font for the whole game. It is also insta-killed by all current summon counters (unless there's a soft-counter I have forgotten about).
    Of course it is targeted and cheaper than most ~12 damage aoe spells...
     
  13. KingJad

    KingJad I need me some PIE!

    Haunting Spirit is still running around with sonic aura but yeti spirit completely loses ghost... RACISM
     
  14. Goyo

    Goyo I need me some PIE!

    [​IMG]
     
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  15. Sepulcher

    Sepulcher I need me some PIE!

    Kind of confused why that would be an issue when it's basically just 1 change (Add Attack - Psychic to Incorporeal or remove Ghost from the game, or better yet - both!) and every patch contains 40 changes. But hey - I'm not knowledgeable of the internal workings, so I'll take his word for it.

    My beef is mainly with AA/SotM and Ghost, yes.

    But I'm also interested in eliminating a, what I consider, poorly designed ability. I think there's enough invulnerability mechanics in this game as it is - such as Impervious-granting spells and abilities such as Cocoon, Turtle, Bloodthirsty Blade, Impervious the spell... Even stealth as a whole. Not because they're imbalanced/OP/I lose to them/I don't know how to counter them, I just think if this game is gearing up to welcome in an influx of new players eager to check out the game, it should eliminate stuff like this that requires a more advanced understanding of the game to counter.

    Pox has two huge hurdles to overcome if it is to acquire new players in bulk - 1) Rune accessibility, and 2) Ridiculous learning curve. I see changing Incorporeal as part of lightening the load for the latter.

    Most of the current playerbase is made up of vets. We know how to deal with Incorporeal, a champ with Bloodthirsty Blade, a snowball champ like Demonvein Vampyre, a deck built around superchamping, a Princeleaf-style shrine rush deck, etc.

    But if this game is going to survive, it needs to get new blood. And when all those new users from the Steam re-launch come rushing in and are like "Oh hey, I can't figure out how to kill that thing" over and over again, I think that's a surefire way to turn them away.

    I realize this is just an opinion, and you may disagree. But it's clear that the way Pox has operated for the past seven years has not worked, and I think it all comes back to those two hurdles. It's time to attack some of these things and optimize the game for new players. It's tough to balance lowering the learning curve without sacrificing the complexity of the game that we all love, but I'd rather have the game simplified and thrive than stay the way it is and miss a big opportunity.
     
  16. Sealer0

    Sealer0 I need me some PIE!

    I agree completely, and have stated several times that this and certain other mechanics/champs will drive people away from the game.
     
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  17. Goyo

    Goyo I need me some PIE!

    100%
     

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