Well it has started

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by chickenpox2, Nov 4, 2020.

  1. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Honestly? I don't think we need to be removing voices.

    We need to be adding voices.

    The parties are hardline because they have no incentive to compromise under the current structure.

    Many people are forced to vote against the other party and freely admit they dislike their own party (just less than the other guys).

    The fact is, as much as I feel strongly about my views, I feel even more strongly that people should have their views represented. I dislike Trump, it's no secret, but I was happy that for many of my friends and family, they finally had someone they could proudly vote FOR, instead of just against.
     
  2. chickenpox2

    chickenpox2 I need me some PIE!

    Even thought they would bring humanity to brink of destruction

    Is it really worth it?
     
  3. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Yes, because there is always risk, and everyone should have a say in that, not just the ones we happen to agree with and assume to be correct.

    The fact is, every side can make the argument that the other side is going to "destroy" everything and use that as an excuse to remove/detain them.

    And that is honestly the real threat.
     
  4. chickenpox2

    chickenpox2 I need me some PIE!

    Also who said I'm removing voices it replacement through convincing right wing idiots they were wrong and to move to the left

    Thats the only way America is going to survive through empathy and coercion
     
  5. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    The words you used were "kick out Replicans from senate" which doesn't sound like "convincing" anyone to me.
     
  6. chickenpox2

    chickenpox2 I need me some PIE!

    You're probably right not worth it, just screw everything (like republicans) and be bitter and self serving ,

    Thats life from now on ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
     
  7. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Nah, I will just continue to educate my children and those around me, while giving them the dignity and respect of being allowed to choose for themselves.
     
  8. chickenpox2

    chickenpox2 I need me some PIE!

    That's good long term but there is a dire need for a short term plan

    Like I said removing bad actor from Congress is a good thing start with the bad dems because we know there are few put more progressives in those areas and then get them to convince the people to vote bad neo liberals out
     
  9. Ohmin

    Ohmin Forum Royalty

    If you want to remove bad actors from Congress (regardless of party) you'll need to first make sure your election systems aren't rigged. However, at present, neither party's politicians in office are interested in doing so. And many Democrats are actively trying to make it easier for them to rig elections and control political rhetoric in general (stiffling any political speech puts a massive handicap on the politicians espousing that speech).

    As such, I recommend you support efforts to conduct forensic audits in all 50 states. "Red" or "Blue" it doesn't matter. Instead of just having the self-same groups audit themselves, get independent, thorough, audits going in all 50 states and in each county.

    Even if the "Left" is right and last years election went off flawlessly (which we already know it didn't but for the sake of argument...) it would do a lot to bolster confidence in the system and make sure people know their votes count and their voices are heard... at least on the electoral system if not [insert large establishment Social Network System here].

    It's not just the Republicans moaning about this too. Democrats have (and had until their recent alleged victory, even into 2019) been raising many concerns about these voting systems and tabulation methods.
     
  10. Ohmin

    Ohmin Forum Royalty

    Sounds good.

    Do you now or will you support their choice when it comes to wearing a mask or not? Or getting one of a small set of supposed vaccines?
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2021
  11. Bushido

    Bushido Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Dw, the government will do that for u
     
  12. Ohmin

    Ohmin Forum Royalty

    Whether you want it to or not.
     
  13. GabrielQ

    GabrielQ I need me some PIE!

    do you think a decision like this is to a children to take? children cannot even decide what they should eat, don't be ridiculous.
     
  14. chickenpox2

    chickenpox2 I need me some PIE!

    Some children are very mature and probably make wise decisions but yes it should be up to the parents
     
  15. Ohmin

    Ohmin Forum Royalty

    A) Wasn't thinking he was refering to just children "and those around me..."

    B) He's talking about how they form political decisions... over time... what they choose when they become old enough to make decisions, rather than when they're toddlers or whatever. At least so it seemed from the context. My post was meant to be within that context.

    C) In the immediate, medical decisions should be up to the parents, something @chickenpox2 and I can agree on.

    D) Even if someone disagrees with C), letting a child decide would still be an improvement over local government and school boards forcing medical decisions on children without their parent's consent; which is what we've got going on currently in a lot of places.
     
  16. GabrielQ

    GabrielQ I need me some PIE!

    I can't agree with D at all. It's the local government place to decide and enforce that kind of policies. Aren't there mandatory vaccinations where you live? that's the most common example of a government mandated medical decision that I can think of.
     
  17. Ohmin

    Ohmin Forum Royalty

    I wonder if you have any kids of your own? I'm not sure if you're thinking about this all the way through. Do you really think that the government should determine what medicins you do or do not take? If the government mandated hormone therapy for example, would you be okay with that? Or if they made it so you were not allowed to take any vaccines to have a child attend school?

    On a related note, are you a "pro-Choice" person? Even if I'm not because I consider babies even in the womb to be a "person" I still wouldn't want to otherwise force medication on a pregnant woman or the like.



    I, for one, would not want any child of mine to be forcefully given medical treatment without either mine nor my child's consent.

    I am against mandatory vaccinations (note that this is not the same as being against all vaccinations). For a number of reasons.

    Generally speaking, there are 4 scenarios when it comes to medications, including vaccination.

    1. It's safe and effective. In this instance, there is no need to mandate a vaccine, because people will want to get it themselves. If for some reason there are those that don't (perhaps for religious reasons, which almost all vaccine mandates for school have had; or due to compromised immune systems which a vaccine would not improve at all), they are the only ones the shoulder the risk, since anyone else can get the medication to protect themselves/their children.

    2. It's safe, but not effective. Inneffective medicine should never be mandated. Indeed, one of the maxims of medicine is to do no more than is necessary. Mandating an inneffective, even if safe, medicine of any kind is really just transfering wealth from the general populace to whatever company is making the medicine. While there may be some "partially" effective medicine whether it's worth taking should be left up to the individual. If nothing else, maybe someone can get a placebo effect out of it, but there are better alternatives in most cases.

    3. It's not safe, but is effective. Mandating an unsafe medicine (which is almost all of them depending on the dosage and cirmcumstances) is obviously a problem. While it's sale should not necessarily be banned, each person should decide for themselves whether or not the risk outweighs the potential reward, not have it forced on them regardless of individual medical concerns etc.

    4. It's not safe nor effective. Then it shouldn't even be sold, let alone mandated.


    "Informed consent" especially when it comes to any experimental medicines or procedures, is a must for a reason.
     
  18. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I wouldn't say I "support" their choice, no. I am not sure why you phrased it that way. I am not going to force them to do it, but I may not allow them to come over to my house if that's what you are asking.

    Ultimately, we can't force people to do anything, of course, but in an udeal world, I'd think everyone should be fully educated in the facts and then they would choose to mask and vaccinate, but unfortunately, that's not really the case.

    And if they didn't, then again, in an ideal world, we could hold them accountable if they did spread the virus to someone else while not choosing to do anything to mitigate the risk. The real issue with this whole thing is that your choices in this regard doesn't just affect you.

    That's the sad part of the people (or family of people) who were anti-vax/mask getting COVID saying "I will get vaccinated now" is that they are still mostly thinking about it in terms of themselves, when the real benefit of widespread mask and vaccinations is it reduces the risk for EVERYONE - and by extension, it protects those who cannot get vaccinated or wear masks. To my mind, it's a civic duty to do what you can to mitigate the risks for your community in these types of situations.

    That said, I do support businesses and sovereign nations deciding whether they will allow unvaccinated/masked people to in - but that's mostly because

    What? It doesn't matter if it's actually safe and effective if people are spreading misinformation about it so people don't think it's safe and effective, that's the whole problem, the 5th, and what I believe to be current scenario:

    5. It's largely safe and effective, and the benefits for society outweighs the risks, but there's a great deal of money being made by fearmongers and opportunists trying to sell the idea that it's neither safe or effective, building off an anti-vax/anti-pharma movement that's been a growing force for many years.

    Heck, I understand the hesitancy with this vaccine - it's perfectly reasonable to have concerns about something like this, but we have to remember that the anti-vax movement didn't start with COVID-19 and the arguments are basically the same. It's just that at least with the COVID-19 vaccine some of it is actually applicable (though IMO, still largely overblown), which muddies the water somewhat.

    There is just not real hard evidence (there's that word again) that there's anything wrong with the vaccine on the wider scale, and plenty of evidence that it's effective.

    ~

    For example, there is data being shared on social media that's being used to say that the vaccine is ineffective and actually increases your risk of death.

    The key data point they are pointing is as follows:

    Delta Deaths vs Delta Cases
    Vaccinated (2 doses): 224 vs 28773 (0.78%)
    Unvaccinated: 165 vs 121402 (0.1%)

    Well, isn't that something? If the vaccine was effective, how could a MUCH higher % of vaccinated people be dying from the Delta variant than unvaccinated?

    For some, this is where they stop. They say, "clearly the vaccine doesn't work" and share this over FB to their friends and family, spreading misinformation in the process.

    ~

    To be helpful, I'll even provide the full data they cherry picked the information from:

    upload_2021-8-11_0-39-31.png

    I'll check back later to see if anyone has the critical thinking skills to figure out the answer to the question above.

    I am seeing this type of thing all over FB and other social media, presenting data without the relevant context and leading people to faulty conclusions.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2021
  19. GabrielQ

    GabrielQ I need me some PIE!

    I see your points, but in the current situation it's clear that even when a vaccine is safe and effective, lots of people choose not to get vaccinated out of ignorance or misinformation. This, in turn, generates new problems, in the case of the rapidly mutating covid, it's new variants, in the case of other diseases, people that don't get vaccines for selfish or superfluous reasons put other people at risk that have compromised immune systems or that for some reason cannot get the vaccine. Diseases got eradicated in a global level thanks to serious and mandatory vaccine campaigns.
    Now you seem to have a warped idea of what you consider "forced" medication in the case we were discussing. I see two possibilities really: 1) requiring or mandating certain stuff, like vaccines 2) giving medical attention in a emergency where the adult cannot be reached in time. If a child is having a life-threatening allergic reaction, I would expect whoever is in charge to disregard any refusal from said child to get a epi-pen for example.
    Now if you want to take things into a dystopian fantasy where the government forces hormone therapy on someone, I think there's no point to discuss whether or not this is right or not because obviously in that case things are beyond human rights.
     
  20. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    The thing about slippery slope arguments is that you can make them about virtually anything and reach ridiculous conclusions.

    We shouldn't mandate masks because any such mandates could lead to the government making any and all medical decisions for you.

    (Some version of this was a primary argument against Obamacare, which is why Obama made the "you can keep your doctor" statement but that's been taken out of context, of course.)

    We shouldn't have any taxes because any tax could lead to the government taking everything you own.

    We shouldn't have laws because any laws could lead to the government using laws to take all your freedoms.

    We shouldn't ever talk to strangers because any such interactions could lead to being killed by a serial killer.

    All of these things are theoretically true, but all interactions and activities have SOME level of risk and people will take advantage regardless. It's all about trade offs. Life doesn't really gives us choices where there is only and always one correct answer, especially most choices have direct effects on other people, who may or may not share our values and priorities.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2021

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