Discussion in 'Ironfist Stronghold' started by doubtofbuddha, Mar 4, 2015.
well its was an auto include before its nerf
Yes, but my question stands, no matter if it was super good or not before.
Would an equip or spell/based damage buff make wings viable? From what I've seen most people write that the only thing they lack is a bit more damage - would a bit extra nora to pump one of your units up make them viable with all their tricks and mobillity?
Im very disappointed with how the sigils turned out. All of the champs are virtually pigeon holed into wing only theme decks. None of the champs bring enough to the table to be run outside of a theme deck.
Scarlet wing has definitely come out of all of my decks. Losing the max range, opportunistic and the related damage, coupled with sigils only proc'ing off sigils has neutered this rune. It also no longer has a spot in fire amp submodules since it can't proc its own fire atk from any deploy and flame strike on cd 3 doesn't quite cut it. Its only one small step out of shoebox status because its a beast with magic damage. Its supposed to be a ranged beater and its damage was nerfed to negligible levels. IF the only change had been the way sigils worked I would have thought that the champ had received an appropriate toning down and wouldn't have minded so much.
On top of this tac manual has been shoeboxed. It was in need of toning down but its current state is laughable. It was effectively 4-5 damage and regen 2 but now its 2-3 damage and regen 1 (barring a few outlier champs). Mark of Redemption and forge hammer are both much better options now. If the HP calculation went to 12-13 HP instead it would be runnable. Or if the tac manual lost the HP calculation aspect and just went to a static 3 damage and regen 2 and cost 30 nora it would be runnable but not auto. regardless something needs to change.
I playtested Wings...I'd say it actually is a lot weaker than before.
Oh well...nice try, but it pales in comparison to what's out there right now. ST with Arctic Bolts, and Frost Cones from Windstriker champs just make WIngs cry to their Dwarven mothers.
- Glad a lot of work got put into wings first off. I think they are close to the mark but it needs a slight tweak for consistent power on the board.
- Currently you basically have to spam champs just to get a so so champ to efficient champ status. Leaving less opportunity for spells etc. Perch also is like a mandatory "make your champs playable" rune...but its like simply paying for your champions power later and only temporarily.
- Now these champions arent exactly spam able like a Moga so then your in a jam. Now you have to micromanage sigil and Nora and deploy order you might end up with needing arrow eater or needing a spell . Now this could be a cool dilemma of power but the end result isn't impacting enough so it unfortunately ends up being...jumping through hoops for less effect then vanilla power runes
- A possible improvement first off is making the sigils have a visual for triggering...or your in the same issue as old barb clan racial where abilities are appearing and disappearing with no feedback on where or when. A power tweak could be having sigils trigger on the deployed champ as well for a duration.....or sigils trigger on deaths of allies as well.
Show me a Wings player in the top 100...nope, didn't think there were any...
Wings are not Tier 1. They are not even Tier 2. Yes, they are THAT bad.
I am really surprised and disappointed that the BIG theme revamp led Wings to be what they are now. The power level of Wings before was not strong, but it is just worse now.
As others have already pointed out, the change to Sigils was a significant nerf. Before you would get Sigil abilities all over the place as it would trigger off any deployed champ and in an AoE. Granted, it was pretty confusing before, so the new system is much much much more simplified. But, at the same time, the power level has went down on Sigils.
Furthermore, the Sigils are not all that strong. Let's take the Ivory Sigil as an example. It's like the developers think that Illuminate granted by the Ivory Sigil is just so awesome. It's pretty much a joke, although the Wings players are really not laughing.
Fisko has been running a Wings-focused IS bg in the Top 100.
Mind posting the battlegroup(s) so it/they can be discussed?
Will removing Race: Beast lower cost? Thoughts of this possibility?
or...What about adding Boost Beast (3) to Ivory Wing, or another?
or...What about making Ivory Sigil a Boost Beast sigil instead of Illuminate?
You would have to ask him. It seems to be a mixture of the best wings and meta pieces like talgar and houndmasters.
Amber, Amethyst and Emerald seem to be OK as-is. Amber is on the fence, though. Griffin Rider and Wild Griffin need to be changed to 1x1 like the newer griffins. My opinions and comments are as follows. Please post thoughts and ideas.
Amber Wing: 79-83 Nora: 81 Nora with Magic Eater and Shroud - Grant Magical Aura and Magic Eater an OK combo if used properly. Shroud works only if we bunch them up within 3 spaces, if not it is worthless. He's on the fence for me for his cost.
Amethyst Wing: 65-78 Nora: 78 Nora with Adaption and Deflect Electric - Amethyst Sigil is one of my favorites with Vaporize on a melee unit.
Cerulean Wing: 68-74 Nora: Upgrade path 1 and Cerulean Sigil are too similar. Upgrade path 2 are all Mobility-based abilities, which the Griffons get that anyway with Griffin Perch. Cerulean Sigil needs to be changed and UP2 needs rework.
Emerald Wing: 75-83 Nora: I like him. He's really different with Grant Teleport on his sigil.
Griffin Rider: 76-90 Nora: Bastion of Mobility is worthless with Griffin Perch. He is too expensive. Tailwind is great, but costs too much. Barrage 1-3 is a good path. 84 Nora for Barrage (1) and Tailwind is too much for 10 damage range champ, IMO. Change to a 1x1 champ like the newer griffins.
Ivory Wing: 61-73 Nora: Ivory Sigil needs to be changed. What about changing to Boost Beast sigil? I have never used this sigil ability (Illuminate) and is worthless. Every time I mention this guy in the past everyone said they would rather run Priest of Valdac instead for Divine Favor and Heal Champion 3. What if we replace Blessed with Divine Favor in Upgrade Path 2 and change the sigil? I understand Divine Favor would increase his price, but that would be a nice option.
Obsidian Wing: 78-88 Nora: Obsidian Sigil needs a change. I would also remove Enrage(2) to lower the cost.
Platinum Wing: 73-86 Nora: I like Strike base instead of Precision, but move Precision to upgrades. But 73 for PS1 and Stab doesn't do enough for 9 damage champ. Replace Stab with something else. Seems like Piercing Shot needs a Nora reduction (0, +3, +8) or (0, +3, +7) instead of (0, +4, +9). +9 for PS3 seems a lot. I think he might need a Nora reduction on base for what he brings.
Scarlet Wing: 63-72 Nora: Nora cost is low, which is nice. I like Scarlet Sigil. I know it's not as good as it was, but has a very low Nora cost for alt range damage. However, Flamestrike on up1 and Burn on up2 both grant Charred. I think Flamestrike path is OK, but replace Burn 1 and 2 in path2. Amplify Fire is fine.
Wild Griffin: 68-75 Nora: Change to a 1x1 champ like the newer griffins.
A few notes:
First, I am very happy with the wings revision from a design perspective, the way they play now is a lot easier to manage (rather than the old way of micro-positioning and juggling dozens of abilities)
Also, lots of good comments here, so I will definitely be revisiting a few of the champs and editing them slightly based on what I've seen here
That said, I know it's easier to judge after you have played the runes, but it would have been nice to have seen more of you in the original discussion thread as well
Note that the review/changes focused primarily on the "real" Sigil champions, so I will try and edit the Griffin Rider and the Wild Griffin as well
But Tailwind itself will NOT be coming down in cost
However, Sigils themselves will likely not change unless I feel really strongly about it or see a really great idea
There are multiple Wings-related runes coming in the next expansion that should flesh out a couple weak areas
Griffin Perch will be going to 0 DEF and 15 HP; this allows us to reduce the cost to 20 nora without making it an uber contestor
@Sokolov This is probably all they will need. My ideas weren't to be taken as a whole, but ideas in parts. I look forward to the new runes. Good idea on the Perch.
Thank you for listening!
Thoughts on IS spell Wings of Glory?
Does this mean you've ultimately decided against your version of the smaller Sigil set I previously suggested? I'm wondering whether or not you'd be open to me sharing that idea, here, or if you're more interested in specific changes to individual champs.
Yea, I will use that idea later for something else probably tho. I did post it into the original thread GD discussion thread.
Im not trying to be a *****, but how some players can see the wings was better before the change even without play them and greens cant? I mean things like this make you waste time, same for the changes on stitched first, you dont have a rune disigner or someone thinking on how runes will work? ALSO this person should play the game every day and know what its the courrent meta and shoebox runes, to me the splashable sigils abilities were better, complex yes, not for all the players yes, but better and much more fun, i fail with wings but saw a lot of players rocks with them in the past, now even good players cant find the way with birds
Some wings were better before, some are now. They simplified their sigils to make them usable by all public not just those who's placement is limited league or higher . Also, I immagine that not having aoe the programming of the wings and their script is halved.
However, I agree with you about how they changed all the wings, even the ones that were actually good before but now feel meh (talking about Obsidian and Scarlet).
Lastly: I really like that they got an overhaul and that Sokolov is working on it. So I hope we can get to a point we can play them soon.
I don't know if this has been suggested before.
Change Wings of Glory to trigger the old sigil effect, something like:
Wings of Glory (25/30 nora, AoE 3): Sigils in the area trigger, and splash it's effect to friendly champions whitin 4 spaces for 2 turn.
It would be a nice powerturn thematic spell, that can also be used defensively to trigger Vaporize, or Arrow Eater.
Potentially very OP, and you dropped it in price too.
I don't think is that OP for a powerturn. There aren't great damage sigils like before: Obsidian no longer grants damage; Emerald is a reposition; Amethyst, Amber and Cerulean are defensive/cc. The problematic ones will only be Scarlet for the damage, and Ivory sigil because of the Illuminate stacking that grants nora.
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