Worms Ground Zero

Discussion in 'Forsaken Wastes' started by kalasle, Sep 5, 2015.

  1. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Also going to try something a little more radical: drop Tome of Hate, never Scry.

    A single game has left me unimpressed with Swarm/Viv -- specifically, he lacked the independent damage output granted by Swarm. The Viv-Lord distinction did little. Will keep going 1/1 on the two Colossi.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2015
  2. 15Deadmen

    15Deadmen The King of Potatoes

    why not scry? isnt tomb really good in those drawn out battles?
     
  3. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Not when my units are more valuable then theirs. If I want to keep a 20 HP Eye alive for another 5 rounds, Tome makes that much more difficult. Also, it costs 45 nora. Tome is good in some long fights -- really good in most other BGs I build -- but worms need more particular control over unit HP. As for not scrying: that keeps the shrine alive so it's harder to get rushed. Transfiguring with worms is a game loss in all but the most unusual of circumstances. Unfortunately, this means dropping Ancient's Proction for Absorb Magic.
     
  4. 15Deadmen

    15Deadmen The King of Potatoes

    I think you might be playing with a dangerous game trying to keep FW champs alive in order to win. From what I can tell, as long as your worms die within the necro zone, all as good if that worm did something over it's time on the field. Most worms arent "valuable" in the traditional sense, why not treat them like other FW champs?

    And if you're talking about Eye alone, then I think you just need to be more careful with it. I even think that the aggressive abilities like soul vitality and surge isnt too great for a bg that's suppose to play defensively. Soul tap and soulfest lets you do a good deal of damage while enabling you to retreat back into the necro zone. Frightful blow with soul vitality could work to since it debuffs the front line and bascially give all your champs plus 3 def.
     
  5. Djangoguy

    Djangoguy The King of Potatoes

    :(
    because the good worms are not cheap meat that you just deploy to suicide itself after dealing 1 turn damage
     
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  6. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    After playing a lot of worms, you really can't just throw away units purely for SDZ. It's a powerful resource, and is fundamental to how worms play, but it isn't the only resource; Bile Zombies, Polluted Martyrs, and some bonus AP aren't enough to win the game. Some units need to stay alive, at least for a time. This is honestly true of other FW units, even for cheap meat, but that's on a gradient. In the oldest days of meat, all you really needed was to get Tome and Bird out, and then redeploy them when they die. From there, it was all about strategic resource allocation. For more recent variations, it was necessary to keep the Collection/Eater units alive, more so than bird. While they could die, and often did, they had a distinct advantage in sticking around as long as possible, and rewarded more defensive play. They key part to each of those situations, though, is that these necessary worms pieces aren't just value engines, either independently or in tandem; the Eyes, Dusks, and Phantasmals of worms need to stay alive to do their best work, and on those units, every hit point counts. They are fundamentally different.

    Also, Eye doesn't have Necrosis, so it dying is straight bad.

    Soul Vitality is a defensive ability. It allows the Eye to more comfortably remain at larger distances from the fight while still maintaining threat. I'm not just including them for SDZ though, that's not what this current take is going to (try to) fix. The older blocks variants or ones missing Eyes or only running 1 Phantasmal assumed that getting massive SDZ and jamming 2x2 or 2x3 Bile Zombies would be enough to win, but sometimes it isn't. Eye+Colossus give the deck muscle that it doesn't otherwise have. Bile Zombie works well as an efficient spell, but it works even better if that spell actually has followup. I've had a hell of a time handling raw HP on opposing units, especially over time. Biles help with that, but if they aren't enough and there aren't other options, the deck crumbles. With Surge, Eyes can fix that, and provide a more consistent stream of punishment that makes the SDZ all the more threatening.

    Colossus is actually the worm most likely to run in and die.
     
  7. 15Deadmen

    15Deadmen The King of Potatoes

    obviously that's not what I mean't. The only worm that I think you wouldn't want dead too quick is Putrid, but even that guy can die eventually; as long as your opponent spends a great deal of resources getting rid of it, I think you'd be fine.
     
  8. 15Deadmen

    15Deadmen The King of Potatoes

    All very true, but I seriously think frightful blow is better than surge worm :3
     
  9. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    In the spirit of experimentation, I will split 1/1 and try it.
     
  10. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    I have been pulling at random for the Eyes, and haven't actually deployed the FBlows one yet. Still not sure it's good. Surge is great, though, that's for sure.

    Speaking of, the muscle/surge worms running 2x Colossus and 2x Eye have been doing good work. Still lost a game to a Revere: Icesnap BG, but a few misplays contributed to that; those raw stats of ST are still giving me trouble. Here's the current list:

    carrion bombs.png

    Still a mess, obviously. Here are my current lines of thinking:

    Broken Bones feels worse and worse. Blood Fiend often fills a similar role, but also comes with a bunch more upsides, like being a legitimately scary combat unit, having Necrosis, and having more raw HP; BB often dies to a poke and a breath. The Bones may be dropped, and I'll see if I miss him. This variant -- heck, most of the versions after worms have seen the cost increases (mainly to Rotmaw -- that extra point of speed can kill; I would love a 5/Zeal build, but eh) -- really doesn't want to toss out ~30 nora just contesting a font, because it does better in situations where both sides are flush on resources than both are starved (I think; it seems that way; it can be hard to tell; probably).

    Polluted Martyr might not need to be a double. He clocks in at 70, and while some of that comes back, I'm not sure I would want to actually deploy two of these in the time it takes for one to die. Again, I find myself erring towards Blood Fiend more. I really miss the instant Exertion. Worms would love some in-house Initiative besides the pizza man.

    Twilight Creeper still does nothing to excite me, but the triplicate of Evasive/Chains/Slowing Armor makes him just valuable enough as a stalling machine to warrant an inclusion. It really hinges on Necrosis though: no way would I run him without it, but with it, he just might get enough growth to make him a reasonable include. He has no mechanical synergy with worms besides that, and his only mechanical contribution is as a cheaper tank than the Colossus.

    Bloodworm still hasn't done anything. I'm running the 80 nora SurgeW/Multi build. Who knows, man. He fits with the Carrionling thread, but he's also an 80 nora melee unit with no defense. Rough life.

    Phantasmals both get Commander, and they work pretty well. Portal is just an insane amount of fun with worms, gosh its great. An attentive player can abuse the heck out of it, and set up almost-unreadable snipes; a unit that has the potential to move literally anywhere on the map for 4 AP produces a huge number of plays just by itself. Hex at CD3 puts a damper on his power, a major damper, but he's still good at contesting fonts. Playable, irksome, but good.

    Running SPD/Distract on Dusk. I've heard Shroud is good?

    Soul Vitality is very good with Bile Zombie.

    I'm not running Tome, so AP drops out for Absorb Magic. About half the real champ lineup features Undead, so it's mostly consistent.

    The deck still probably has too many champions.

    Putrid Creeper goes back to both with Harvest -- I was running 1 with Consume again when Blocks were in the deck.

    Colossus upgrades are all over the place. Surge is great, I've heard good things about Vivify from @Netherzen but haven't got it to work myself, Swarm can help him ball up, Torrent seems underrated and can proc Lord, Aura does great damage and combos with Lord -- I really don't know what to take on this guy. Right now I'm running one with Torrent/Lord and another with Swarm/Surge. They each have their benefits, but Lord makes a huge difference for the Eye plan, because then picking up kills is a more substantial part of the expansion process. He's still a monster in any form, but that's not good enough. If this selection process was meant to be frustrating, then its the best designed part of this entire game, hats off. Literally every part seems viable, and each comes at the cost of some other spicy option, especially in U2.

    And yes, I am using both Titans consistently, incredibly so. I actually find myself checking the cooldown on the second one after the first one dies a second time, and hoping that the first Colossus dies so that the Carrionlings pop out and I can deploy the second. One of the biggest mistakes in the temporary movement to Blocks was sidelining this champ.
     
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  11. Netherzen

    Netherzen I need me some PIE!

    I agree.One is enough and space for other runes is precious.

    Try the bleed/bloodlust build and try to grab the bloodballs with blood fiend.These two are vampyre-worm buddies.

    Two dusk creeper,shroud and empower:speed.
    Empower speed keeps him cheap,gives him needed speed in the early game before you set up.It also gives him ability:mobility,which has been useful more then expected.
    Shroud counters range hard(it also works great with bloodworm 2 def,putrid 3 def and tough and carrion colosuss),and this is one of major weakness of the worms.You deploy your champions,your opponent deploys his champions and half your stuff gets shot down by range before it can do enough damage.You mentioned how worms lack hp,well this helps worm perserve their hp against range.It does make a dusk creeper a huge target for the enemy,which is why i run 2.

    I personaly like vivify more but i can see surge being just as good if it fits your playstyle.

    Surge/soul vitality is the way to go.

    Regarding the non champions runes:i would drop skull,absorb and staff for something more consistent.
    Bone trap for contesting(or replacing broken bones?).
    Another festering wound can better the passive agressive play of worms and replace skull as anti healing.
    As well as serving as detect.
    I found running 1x blight ring amazing as long as they dont heal too much.The damage output of that thing is crazy,its the cheapest form of doom possible.Also low cooldown.
    Sac dagger might be a weird but viable choice to keep key worms alive since they are no longer expendable.

    These are my 2cent from my experience playing them,i hope you find something useful to help you.
     
  12. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    I ran that build for a while and it didn't especially impress. I'll give it another whirl, I guess.

    I was more so meaning that they have trouble handling the raw HP of opposing units -- worms are mostly ok when it comes to generating HP of their own, thanks to Blood Fiend and Colossus.

    I will try out the Shroud setup and see if it does anything for me. Honestly, I really hate putting in more AoE buffs. That's not why I like playing worms, and it's another thing to manage every turn. Just feels gross and out of place.

    I have gotten Frightening Blows recommendations from 15deadmen. I'm still trying it out, like I said, I haven't deployed the unit yet.

    The support runes are in flux. Staff probably stays though, so long as I can remember to actually pull it out when appropriate. It helps with the enemy-HP problem.

    Really doubt a second Wounds would do anything for me. In standoffs it usually feels best to just deploy more worms, rather than put out some spell pressure. I don't think I've cast the spell once in the new version. With one Wounds and 2x Eye already in, I'm not especially worried about stealth.

    Blight Ring is really neat and that sounds like something to try. Used to swear by that rune back in old-old meat lists, and it goes in and out of favor. I'll put one in. Sac Dagger... that sounds a bit wild for now.

    Thanks for the suggestions as always.

    I've also been thinking about trying out Reanimate because of the strong placement and timing synergy with worms, but haven't gotten it to work yet.
     
  13. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Defs gonna be Surge on the Eye. Too valuable after the Carrion explosion.

    Going 1/1 with Colossus on the Torrent/Lord and Swarm/Surge builds feels really good. Not sure which I like best. Maybe Surge/Lord would be the best if theoretically possible? Really, I just want Surge/Swarm/Lord, the old build but without Torrent. Such a great unit.

    Torrent/Lord gives him ranged options, and makes him a Lord, which is an enormous advantage -- having only 3 really stinks, but there's no way I'm including Blinking again, not for 80+. On the flip side, Swarm/Surge makes him a terrifying beast while he's out, capable of balling out of control and bunching for 20 easy. Tough choice.

    Bloodworm also feels ok with Surge/Multi. Bit of a glass cannon, but he can deal some solid-enough damage.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2015
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  14. RedScarlet

    RedScarlet I need me some PIE!

    Been tinkering with SP/FW worms (w Ritual Cultist death/deploy charged) with good results, and found that:
    (1) Blinking Creeper definitely needs that Flight taken out of his base abilities. -6 Nora for an ability that is redundant in the theme. I can just skip all elevated terrain if my deploy zone is half the map
    (2) Dusk Creeper's U1 is too good, you either pass up on Distract or Shroud. I feel like there is still room for worms like Mindthief to be given a Distract-based harassment ability, or simply Shroud.
    (3) Mindthief has 8 base damage with no basic attack? I assume its only for Adaptation purposes, which gives him terrible efficiency... I think he should be revisited:

    Base: - 8 Base dmg (~ -12 Nora)
    (keep) Adaptation (a champion can be designed for non basic damage-based abilities only... not that weird)
    (keep) Necrosis
    (keep) Paralyze
    (-5 Nora) Shadowspawn ......(Would most likely use him as a spot-on Paralyze to one-turn or disable NKD or the likes, so Shadowspawn is a bit weird with Initiative/Reinforcement. Makes sense with his old design, not for the new one.)

    U1: Reflection 1, Reflection 2, Reflection 3
    New U1: Confuse (+4 Nora), Shroud (+4 Nora), Flourish (+4 Nora)

    U2: Initiative 1, Initiative 2
    New U2: Reinforcement 2 (+4 Nora), Initiative 2 (+0 Nora), Guarded: Worms (+0 Nora)

    More or less he'll be at 55 Nora (with Confuse and any of the U2)- 65 Nora (with Flourish and any of the U2).
     
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  15. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Quick update on changes:

    -1 Broken Bones
    -1 Polluted Martyr
    -1 Absorb Magic
    -1 Skull of Decay
    +1 Hungry Dead
    +1 Reanimate
    +1 Snuff
    +1 Blight Ring

    Feels better.

    Broken Bones and Martyr didn't pull their weight; often, it was just as well to deploy Blood Fiend. One Martyr stays in to do what he does, but I haven't missed either of the cut champions.

    Same goes for Absorb Magic -- it's a spicy spell when it works, and it makes a great combo with Doom, but I'm not running Doom right now and it costs nora. Worms are a weird theme because they are more flush with effective AP than any other faction or theme, but depend upon their thin nora to generate and use that AP advantage. Worms shouldn't spend nora on something that doesn't clearly kill units or is itself a deploy, unless there's a darn good reason.

    I hate healing, and it can give worms a hell of a time, but Skull of Decay was another 35 nora situational rune that didn't do enough to advance worms' core aim.

    Hungry Dead is an experiment. Lockdown can do wonders in a deck that runs Carrionlings, Bloodfiend, and Rotmaw, and the spell can do up to 16 damage if the opponent doesn't move out. That's a lot of work for 35 nora -- nora that actually makes things die. It also gives worms cliffing power against opposing fliers, which is a nice touch. Thank god this doesn't key off Undead anymore. After looking it over, I honestly think people are sleeping on this rune; it is really good.

    I haven't gotten to do anything truly broken with Reanimate yet, but the potential is there, and it makes a wonderful form of protection on Eye, Bloodworm, and Putrid. Great synergy with the expanded SDZ: the unit dies, then redeploys close by at the end of turn, immediately generating AP.

    Snuff has diddled in and out of this list for ages -- it's the cute girl who isn't quite the type to be anything more than a perpetual friend. Snuff is cool. I like the spell. For as little as 15 nora, you can clamp down on opposing melee, or exacerbate an opposing over-extension. It also prevents equipment and several forms of cleanse. Liability doesn't do much, but Lumbering plus Pariah makes this spell runable.

    Finally, Blight Ring -- useful sometimes, not always, but consistent enough to earn the spot.
     
  16. Djangoguy

    Djangoguy The King of Potatoes

    Have you used this spell against IS? It's useless
     
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  17. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Which is the one downside. It is also really bad against Tough and Voidshield, which are both popular defensive abilities right now, so, it has some contextual problems. Still really good though, even if it's a wash in one case.
     
  18. Djangoguy

    Djangoguy The King of Potatoes

    You will run a spell that is useless against a entire faction? Strange decision eh, do you know that no damage = no snare?
     
  19. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    I am aware of how the spell works, and yes, I am totally willing to run something that doesn't work in a portion of the games, so long as it is strong enough when it does see use. At a 7/8 ratio, it's good enough.
     
  20. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    SL feels like a really rough matchup. Had some trouble with Guardian of Eretat. Units that have lots of DR like that cut Bile Zombies down to nothing. Tough especially makes BZ weep. Anyone have tips for handling that stuff? The free relics absorb tons of damage and don't give triggers.
     

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