worries about the big change

My hopes and aspirations; (This might get lengthy, apologies beforehand).

A swap to a 'slot' system. Define abilities by their primary function; Offense, Defense, Utility, Racial, Weakness. Can even color code them; Red, White, Green, Yellow, Blue.

Now, you establish a defined ability slot/ stat ratio for each rarity. Commons get the fewest slots, and the most stats. Uncommons a few more slots, and fewer stats. So and and so forth, with Legendary and Limited runes having the most Abilities, and the weakest stats.

So now, we have a curve of sorts between raw power and functionality. The higher the rarity, the more dynamic you can build a battlegroup, while you can opt for more raw, focused efficiency building in 'cheaper' rarities.

So, a base common, without any other exceptions, could have up to four slots (One in each category), and a bulk of stats. Let's look at a FW common for an example.

Afflicted Corpse (Current)

7 Base Abilities; Amplify disease (Utility), Attack: Physical (Offensive), Boon of the Undead (Racial), Disease Aura (Offensive), Lumbering (Weakness), Rabid (Offensive), and Zombie Apoc (Racial)

4 Upgrades - Disease Aura (Offensive Boost), Damage Shield: Disease (Defensive), Death Nova: Disease (Offensive), HP 3 (Defensive)

So;

Offensive- 3 abilities base, 1 boost option, 1 new ability in upgrades
Defensive- 0 Abilities base, 2 new options in upgrades
Utility- 1 ability
Racial- 2 abilities

Which means you could technically end up with a total of 4 offensive abilities, 1 defensive ability, the 1 utility, and the 2 racials. For a new total of 8 abilities. On just a common. And at the bottom of the slot lists, any number of weaknesses to offset the power of some of the abilities depending on target cost.

In the system I'm suggesting. A common would only be allowed Five total slots. 1 Offensive, 1 Defensive, 1 Utility, 2 Racial. Upgrades would be retuned to solely boost any of the five. No new additions from upgrades, with the only exception being stat upgrades.

So, the new Afflicted Corpse;

(Couple more base damage, couple more base HP)

5 Base Abilities; Offensive; Attack: Physical. Defensive; Damage Shield: Disease(rnk 1). Utility; Amplify Disease. Racial; Boon of the Undead, Zombie Apocalypse Weakness; Lumbering

Upgrades would become raw stat boosts; HP+, Dmg+, Def+, Damage Shield: Disease (rnk 3)

Even for a rune that arguably doesn't technically need a readjustment, it's now become even more streamlined, and easier to work with.

Uncommons would expand the complexity by gaining and additional ability in any category, and one 'free slot' in it's ability set that it can plug a new ability into from its upgrade list, I'd say out of a choice of two, with two options for raw stat upgrades, which could be picked in any combination. (So one of the abilities and a stat upgrade, or both stat upgrades)

Rare would move that up again, with two new abilities and two slots available for new abilities, and maybe a raw stat option. And this would establish the 'cap' for additional abilities gained from upgrades.

Exotic would forgo any raw stat options, and would be able to choose from four upgrade abilities (Pretty much a carbon copy of where we're at now). BUT, we'd likely have to see a few of them cut back to hit the 'required slot count.'

Legendary and Limited would obviously have the largest 'ability pool.' But the tradeoff would be the weakest stat lineup to compensate for the broader scope of abilities.

So, in summary;

-Commons could have 5 and only five abilities ever, and would have the highest base stats
-Uncommons could have up to 6 abilities, and would have slightly weaker base stats compared to commons
-Rares could have up to 7 abilities, and would have slightly weaker base stasts compared to uncommons
-Exotics could have up to 8 abilities, and would have slightly weaker base stats compared to rares
-Legends/Ltds could have up to 9 abilities, and would have slightly weaker base stats compared to exotics

Now, This sounds like the ability 'clump' gets pretty hefty the higher up the rarity ladder we climb, but we have to remember that a few slots are already 'spent' on basic attacks (Why not have more than one on some champs?...other than Argol ), racials, and it's not like we actually have to fill out the alloted slots.

And on top of all of this, a restriction in place that no more than three slots can be dedicated to any kind of ability type.

At the very least, creating a relatively rigid 'framework' of this type (And possibly even further refined by cost; +/- on different cost brackets) I think would go a long way in the opening up of design space.

As a final note, I'll parrot the disdain for the Ferren racial, and would argue the Barb racial is only as bad as it is for lack of decent tooltips. Well, decent tooltips and that there was never really a good reason in my opinion to have each kind of barb activation apply more than one ability to other barbs. But, the more stuff added into these kinds of racials, the easier it is to find ways to break them, and harder to find ways to balance them and design new and interesting items to stand beside them.

Anyway, my twenty three pounds of cents on the matter.

 

On a related sidenote to devs:
When you push this through please also add the "delete all BGs" button. As we will all need and use that.

 

+1

 

I haven't read through the entire thread but my thoughts are this. If every champ is stripped down in abilitys. And stats ate adjusted to make up for the loss of things like evasive, the game will be very balanced. We will have to pick what roles best fill our bgs. And it will no longer be who has the most efficent jack of all trades champ.
This will create variety and simple but interesting synergies.


An up and coming game faeria does this one ability per card. The gameplay is rich and deep. If pox were to have cards that filled simplifed roles, and our wonderful ap system. The game would once again be about having a better play than packing the right ability to deal with a certain champ.

 

This is an example of where I hope the game is after the revamp 2.0 (using mercer's slot system with a twist).

Crossbone:
rarity: common, cost: 64
race: undead, species: skeleton
class: archer, subclass: none
spd: 6 health: 40

primary attack slot: crossbow ( 3-4 range, 5 physical dmg) [no more base range/dmg, each attack lists the range/dmg it does]
secondary attack slot: empty [on the same attack chain as primary]
defense slot: empty
special slot: empty
utility slot: empty
equipment slot: empty
conditions: resist disease (granted by race undead), resist poison (granted by race undead) vuln fire (granted by species skeleton), max range +1 (granted by class archer)

upgrades [note that these upgrades replace whatever is in the corresponding slot now , still 2 upgrades max]
special slot: ichor rabid or ichor poison
defense slot: armor 1 or health +4



Now every spell, ability, or equipment that modifies a champ must do so through the slot system. only the conditions slot may contain more than 1. still 1 equip per champ even if they would affect different slots. so for example...

Sheild of Darkness
grants:
defense slot: armor 2
equipment slot: first primary attack misses [equipment slot is for special abilities that aren't covered by the base slots]

Lichbone Staff
grants:
condition slot: resist lightning [immunities are bad for the game, change all to resists]
secondary attack slot: chain lightning [this would overwrite any existing secondary attacks]

I think the complexity problem in poxnora does not come from the core champ upgrade system or all the possible modifications and interactions. it comes from every new rune having its own set of rules and every expansion modifying the base system of things (charges instead of ap for example). Make one system, it can be complicated and rpg like, just stay true to it with new expansions so everyone knows the damn rules and what to expect. so if a crossbow attack has range 3-4, dmg 5 physical on the Crossbone, it would have the same range and dmg on any other champ that had crossbow as its basic attack. that other champ may have other conditions or abilities which modify its dmg or range and that's fine. but just be consistent, a crossbow attack is a crossbow attack. period.

and likewise, if species: lich grants conditon: evil aura on the Lich king, then it does the same thing on every other champ with species: lich !!. sigh

 

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I like the game complex. Very complex. The infinte and sometimes unexpectable interactions are what makes Pox Pox and not just some shitty TGC where each card has to have so-and-so much stuff, not more and not less.

 

I hope they cut abilities like "intensified" and others that grant a Bane Shift ton of abilities and buffs at the same time

 

I also like complexity in a game, but if you guys really want Pox to stay where its at, then you might as well delete most shoebox runes from the rune list since no one will run it against current 'meta' runes.

if ever DOGz didn't buy the game, and its still with Sony (given them being active and 'nerfing' and 'buffing' stuff like Frost Giant etc), by graph, powercreep will continue going up

as powercreep goes up, it'll hit the Exo and Legendaries. Once it'll hit those rarity, trade sharks will hoard not only the EXO n LEG, but also the C/U/R that are newly buffed. Once that happens, price of new EXO/LEG will go to ridiculous level, and C/U/R will always be OOS. Once that happens, you basically closed the entrance for new players. Pox will then either have similar player base or less. And well, you know what happens afterwards.

With that said, it's really scary when Ammon explained about the changes .... are there any clarifications as to the deletion of skills? I mean, 2 of what a champ has is pretty vague.

(even though I've to say Bowmage with Blindfire and Evasive 2 was pretty sick. Even now, its still runnable, so that was kinda a bad example. Bowmage was really really strong back then)

 

I like neither powercreep nor runes that are better or worse than the average. But I like complexity and many abilities.

 

The core of this revamp has to be "minimal design is the best design". You determine a core function for a rune, maybe set aside one ability or two that define the flavor of that rune. Then you figure out what is the simplest way I can achieve that function such that this rune is unique from other similar runes. I wouldn't think of this as buff/nerf, but rather as a ground up restoration from all corners.

 

That could go horribly wrong.

 

I don't think anyone so far has said anything along the lines of killing complexity. But there is a fine line between complexity and convolution. The difference between there being a reasonable chance to see the tactical aspects of what's going on with a match, and having to take a test on deep space cosmic particles while on a rocket propelled wave runner performing open heart surgery and painting a portrait of your favorite hamster.

One of those is good for the game. The other not so much.

 

its like you just described doctor who episode XD

 

Yes. So what?

Right now the game is near unplayable for a lot of us, not to mention all the newbies (that the game doesn't have). When somebody points this out, the (totally fair) response is usually "just have some patience, it will be addressed soon".

When this overhaul happens and it's as severe as I hope for, then the game will go through a rough transition phase, yes. But a lot of people will enjoy playing with the changes, while everybody else will just have to have a little patience until everything is running smoothly again.

And besides, I really don't think that lack of balance is as bad as it's made out to be. Lack of balance is frustrating if it's persistent, and you have to deal with the same crap over and over again. But if the devs stay on the ball in the months after the overhaul, and release balance patches at least once a week or so, then anything grossly unbalanced will not stay around for long. In fact there is a lot to like about the phase where the meta is most vibrant, and you can come up with a unique and actually effective idea every other day.

 

Complexity itself isn't as much a problem (aside from creating a steep learning curve). The main issue is it creates a design space that's impossible to balance, and also impossible to implement (without bugs).

It's also possible to achieve depth without complexity; this is why players are pushing for simpler champions.

 

I don't see the point of depth without complexity; Pox has always been about rleentless complexity. I want it to go to a level where you can calculate what is happening - percentages suck - to be understandable - abilities that grant other abilities that are not outlined suck - but I DON'T want the (meaningful) number of abilities to go down or something. For me the point of Pox is somehow working your way around a million little interactions you have to think about.

Edit: Knockback and relocation suck, too. You have to look far and wide to find something less intuitive.

 

Great depth means that there is always something more that you can do better, something else you can try. If a game has truly great depth then you never stop learning about it.
Complexity doesn't necessarily contribute to depth and serves to alienate new players who are unfamiliar with the intricacies of the gameplay. We don't need complexity for a deep level of gameplay and high complexity puts the onus on memorizing tons of obscure interactions rather than on synergetic deck construction and tactical play. I don't disagree that analyzing the cost/benefit of various possible paths is fun but I do disagree with the idea that we need to complexity to have element in the gameplay.

 

First, everything about change a lot of thing, its not just about a more compreensive game to be played, its about balance, in my view, its way more about balance.
About bowmage, why he have 1 def instead of 0 def? why he have evasive 2? why inbue stun add +2 dmg instead -50% dmg? why he have basic attack when he have blindfire? why h can upgrade from rain of arrow none, to rain of arrow 3? and after saying all that, WHY THE Firk HE COST ONLY 80 NORA?
And yet, bowmage its not a good exemple of big changes will do, Kas Guide is, with 7 abilities listed, and you can upgrade 2 more, making 9 abilities total, and geting 5 more abilites from artic and nohkan do 2, completing 14 abilities, if you do not count the summon pupil and all his abilities.

 

Could have sworn this was said before but... didn't you quit already?

 

Going in a thread saying this without pointing someone out is kinda ...
In case you would mean me. No. I never quit.