Terrain Stabalizer FTW

[Intricasm]

Originally Posted by CSchwarz

Right. Massive discounts.

Er.. They were talking about aquatics. Those aren't aquatics. So your sarcastic remark doesn't really apply.

also, on topic; I want to go to Joe's Crab Shack now.

[kyzrin]

I must have missed where aquatic is an upgrade on those four runes, since you quoted my specific statement about aquatics and then put those pictures I can only assume you have information that I don't about the aquatic nature of a dunewalker.

[tangmcgame]

Originally Posted by kyzrin

I must have missed where aquatic is an upgrade on those four runes, since you quoted my specific statement about aquatics and then put those pictures I can only assume you have information that I don't about the aquatic nature of a dunewalker.

Maybe, MAYBE, CS was showing just how many options there are for shutting down Aquatics that you haven't considered. The Aquatic theme is incredibly fragile (which is why I don't play it). It isn't as if the "ONE AND ONLY DOWNSIDE" of Aquatics is TS, but that is what you tried to say.

[CSchwarz]

Actually, my sarcastic remark certainly applies, though I'm additionally glad it inspired a relevant connection from tangmcgame. It's not like terrain decks don't clash against eachother heavily! I wonder how a Dunewalker's/a Snowguard's quite-large X Veil interacts with a terrain Generator that is even screwed up by friendly Trail units or friendly spells that generate the exact same terrain... Screwed up even for multiple turns if there's a larger patch! Hah, 'fragile' is quite right.
And a global-effect relic costing 'a whole'/'only' (depending on which side you're on) 35 nora that's stashed behind the shrine or even further away in a corner (Hee, Soak the Earth even takes, what, four rounds to destroy it, as well as a sacrificial spell-presence unit, as well as costing but ten less nora to destroy it, as well as putting on cooldown a critical water-generation spell? What a fair trade) is definitely the only thing that has the ability to make sure that discount's disadvantage is present (omnipresent through an entire game, perhaps).



And yet... Even if you're somehow right about stripping Aquatic units of any and nearly all generated water that leaves them with an excellently effective -25 nora crippling maleffect by an absolute, global counter that's completely absurd in its applicability being fair game, isn't that discount offset by the cost of a single Soak the Earth to negate it for a few turns? Or by the cost of getting a passive-ability Trail: Water unit out to babysit the amazingly-efficient Aquatic champions (most of which...don't have it as an upgrade and likely aren't getting their money's worth) in a game full of AoEs? Or a slow-moving Flood Generator that needs to be kept in an owned font, and either takes time to actually reach any action or is otherwise in danger of having the font contested?

Oh, and if you want to play the nora cost game, we can always compare the vaunted and amazing -25 nora discount on each aquatic champion versus -35 nora from your bank, and then add the nora cost of each champion, relic, and spell water generation required to offset that discount's conditional disadvantage.



But on to the meaning of my own post, I just don't see where Ice and Sand themes are getting discounted for their nora-costing abilities that Terrain Stabilizer laughs in the face of, spits in the face of, and grinds the face of into the, heh, stone, and instead paying are nora in order to have their effects throttled, globally.


I apologize if you couldn't catch the wider retort than TS just unequivocally destroying an entire single deck theme, namely that it unequivocally destroys several (regardless of whether they 'save nora' or cost extra~).

[DfosterW]

Do people really fail to see the relevancy of four runes that are non aquatics, that rely on terrain? CS was pointing this out, and once again showing how terribly designed the stabilizer is. Yes, aquatic champs get a huge nora discount. All the sand champs in SL do not get a discount, and the entire theme is gone. Sandstalker lords become pretty silly, dunewalkers are pointless. Varu dragons can no longer shut down champs for extended periods. Then she showed artic champs that ALSO get shut down by it. The speed is usually not the issue, but the in case of the snow prowler, who thrives on constant stealthing, I'd say it shuts him down well also. No more huge assassinates. That all seems pretty on topic to me.

[Kentos]

this rune either helps or it doesnt do crap- but when it does help (which ISNT once every blue moon) its too MUCh of a help. Now, idk HOW TO fix it- but i would like a way to counter terrain- but not make terrain decks obselete. Whether it be "give all friendlt units in X space Lavawalker, ampibhous, etc" or what- idc, it shouldnt be this one sided...

[tulkash]

Originally Posted by CSchwarz

Actually, my sarcastic remark certainly applies, though I'm additionally glad it inspired a relevant connection from tangmcgame. It's not like terrain decks don't clash against eachother heavily! I wonder how a Dunewalker's/a Snowguard's quite-large X Veil interacts with a terrain Generator that is even screwed up by friendly Trail units or friendly spells that generate the exact same terrain... Screwed up even for multiple turns if there's a larger patch! Hah, 'fragile' is quite right.
And a global-effect relic costing 'a whole'/'only' (depending on which side you're on) 35 nora that's stashed behind the shrine or even further away in a corner (Hee, Soak the Earth even takes, what, four rounds to destroy it, as well as a sacrificial spell-presence unit, as well as costing but ten less nora to destroy it, as well as putting on cooldown a critical water-generation spell? What a fair trade) is definitely the only thing that has the ability to make sure that discount's disadvantage is present (omnipresent through an entire game, perhaps).



And yet... Even if you're somehow right about stripping Aquatic units of any and nearly all generated water that leaves them with an excellently effective -25 nora crippling maleffect by an absolute, global counter that's completely absurd in its applicability being fair game, isn't that discount offset by the cost of a single Soak the Earth to negate it for a few turns? Or by the cost of getting a passive-ability Trail: Water unit out to babysit the amazingly-efficient Aquatic champions (most of which...don't have it as an upgrade and likely aren't getting their money's worth) in a game full of AoEs? Or a slow-moving Flood Generator that needs to be kept in an owned font, and either takes time to actually reach any action or is otherwise in danger of having the font contested?

Oh, and if you want to play the nora cost game, we can always compare the vaunted and amazing -25 nora discount on each aquatic champion versus -35 nora from your bank, and then add the nora cost of each champion, relic, and spell water generation required to offset that discount's conditional disadvantage.



But on to the meaning of my own post, I just don't see where Ice and Sand themes are getting discounted for their nora-costing abilities that Terrain Stabilizer laughs in the face of, spits in the face of, and grinds the face of into the, heh, stone, and instead paying are nora in order to have their effects throttled, globally.


I apologize if you couldn't catch the wider retort than TS just unequivocally destroying an entire single deck theme, namely that it unequivocally destroys several (regardless of whether they 'save nora' or cost extra~).

TS is a counter to two spells comboes (water generating spell+FF, water generating spell+drown) that happens to have a huge impact against terrain BGs. I dare say no IS player would care to include it in a BG (as we do not include it often even if it gives us a chance against FS) just to defeat terrain BGs.
About your "wider retort": SO WHAT?
If I play a CtE BG and I face someone running a single decay I'm more than likely going toast. If one plays a nora gen heavy BG and I face someone running cyclops shamans (or centaurs) he's going to lose more often than not. If one plays a ranged eavy BG against UD he's going to pay dearly for it. If one plays a relic heavy BG against SL he's going to suffer, and it goes on and on and on...
This game has counters, running a certain theme BG doesn't mean you should not face an opponent with a rune able to cripple it. Hell, TS is so uncommon it's likely you'll face it once in 20 games (maybe) running a terrain BG.
The truth is terrain theme BG are seldom run because people don't like them that much, not because they are scared their opponent is running TS. TS is so much hated because it's an hard counter to the 2 most used and abused FS spell comboes and FS players just hate when they can't drown or FF an opponent to death.

[jibtekw]

Originally Posted by tulkash

If I play a CtE BG and I face someone running a single decay I'm more than likely going toast.

Your champs will still work.

Originally Posted by tulkash

If one plays a nora gen heavy BG and I face someone running cyclops shamans (or centaurs) he's going to lose more often than not.

Your champs will still work.

Originally Posted by tulkash

If one plays a ranged eavy BG against UD he's going to pay dearly for it.

Your champs will still work.

Originally Posted by tulkash

If one plays a relic heavy BG against SL he's going to suffer, and it goes on and on and on...

Your champs will still work.

Originally Posted by tulkash

The truth is terrain theme BG are seldom run because people don't like them that much, not because they are scared their opponent is running TS.

Because the champs stop working.

[kyzrin]

Originally Posted by CSchwarz

Actually, my sarcastic remark certainly applies, though I'm additionally glad it inspired a relevant connection from tangmcgame. It's not like terrain decks don't clash against eachother heavily! I wonder how a Dunewalker's/a Snowguard's quite-large X Veil interacts with a terrain Generator that is even screwed up by friendly Trail units or friendly spells that generate the exact same terrain... Screwed up even for multiple turns if there's a larger patch! Hah, 'fragile' is quite right.
And a global-effect relic costing 'a whole'/'only' (depending on which side you're on) 35 nora that's stashed behind the shrine or even further away in a corner (Hee, Soak the Earth even takes, what, four rounds to destroy it, as well as a sacrificial spell-presence unit, as well as costing but ten less nora to destroy it, as well as putting on cooldown a critical water-generation spell? What a fair trade) is definitely the only thing that has the ability to make sure that discount's disadvantage is present (omnipresent through an entire game, perhaps).



And yet... Even if you're somehow right about stripping Aquatic units of any and nearly all generated water that leaves them with an excellently effective -25 nora crippling maleffect by an absolute, global counter that's completely absurd in its applicability being fair game, isn't that discount offset by the cost of a single Soak the Earth to negate it for a few turns? Or by the cost of getting a passive-ability Trail: Water unit out to babysit the amazingly-efficient Aquatic champions (most of which...don't have it as an upgrade and likely aren't getting their money's worth) in a game full of AoEs? Or a slow-moving Flood Generator that needs to be kept in an owned font, and either takes time to actually reach any action or is otherwise in danger of having the font contested?

Oh, and if you want to play the nora cost game, we can always compare the vaunted and amazing -25 nora discount on each aquatic champion versus -35 nora from your bank, and then add the nora cost of each champion, relic, and spell water generation required to offset that discount's conditional disadvantage.



But on to the meaning of my own post, I just don't see where Ice and Sand themes are getting discounted for their nora-costing abilities that Terrain Stabilizer laughs in the face of, spits in the face of, and grinds the face of into the, heh, stone, and instead paying are nora in order to have their effects throttled, globally.


I apologize if you couldn't catch the wider retort than TS just unequivocally destroying an entire single deck theme, namely that it unequivocally destroys several (regardless of whether they 'save nora' or cost extra~).

I happen to agree that the terrain stabilizer is a bad mechanic, and I don't personally run one. I was making a specific statement about one very specific element of the issue, and you felt the need to quote one VERY specific part of my statement and try to use it in another discussion. I didn't miss the broader stroke of what you were attempting, it's simply not what I was talking about and I have no interest in discussing, because I agree with you on those points. I was only commenting on aquatics because it's a big discount, and comes with a big vulnerability.

I do take issue with the idea that you assume you have the RIGHT to maximum efficiency for your terrain simply by virtue that you run it, but a deck running a terrain stabilizer is using the same logic in a way; I don't want to walk on water with the risk in entails against a swamp deck.

I love sand as a theme and can sympathize with your dislike of the stabilizer, and I do think it should be font powered, it would make sense too, no effect that strong should be hidden behind a shrine.

I also didn't mean to imply it was the only weakness of aquatics, but it's the only one in IS. Aquatics struck me as a paper tiger sort of deck, it will do huge amounts of damage with dirt cheap units, but is exceedingly fragile, which isn't exactly a bad thing.

[LacrimRein]

I have to play masons spire with TS at least once again FS. I would just lol while the expletives flew.