I am creating this thread to remove the discussion from other threads So several players have voiced there very strong opinions against witches *cough* @kalasle *cough* Witches thematically fit FW flavor. Dark magic, some undead summon shenanigans, to me they should be FW. What defines them as a faction theme though? The signature ability is a rather nasty debuff that just gets more difficult to deal with as time goes on. Cursing someone feels very thematic. I love to run curse on several witches. This one feature alone has caused a lot of people to gripe. Now in another thread, kalasle brought up how they have no uniqueness and no essentially no depth. I disagree with this, but I want to get other players opinions not about what the theme is, but how it should be. What do you think should make witches unique and flavorful while remaining true to FW but without getting a complete overhaul?
To be clear on one point of terminology: "uniqueness" isn't a quality, it's not something of which a theme can have more or less. People everywhere use phrases like "more unique" or "very unique," but unique is not a word which takes those kind of adjectival modifiers. A thing is unique -- unlike everything else -- or it isn't. There's no middle ground. Now, certainly elements of a thing may be unique relative to elements of other similar things, and it's useful to talk about that, but calling an entire theme unique or not unique will only muddy the rhetorical waters and lead to miscommunication. Every deck is as a whole unique; no deck is unique in all its parts.
I don't see a problem with a theme playing outside the typical strengths of a faction. It is what themes are supposed to do, provide the option to do things a little differently. If you're not into that, don't play them.
Yup, themes will do things different from other themes within a faction. That happens. I have neither been advocating removing witches, nor changing witches, nor not printing witches. I was expressing why I dislike them, and how much. An articulation of preferences and personal reasoning may imply, but doesn't require, a desire for any kind of change. Just because I hate them doesn't mean I think they should change. That's maybe foreign in an environment where rhetoric advocates for the pure enjoyment of a single ur-player, but that's how it is: I want nothing to do with witches, but they can still be what they are right now. If I gave the impression that I was pushing for any particular changes to Witches, my apologies, that was not my intention at all, and I should have been more clear. I would have suggested a direction were that the case.
The witch racial used to be reanimation upon death if a number of witches with elsari coven was present(4 or 5?). It was overpowered so it was removed but it was really fun and in the spirit of FW. Then it was changed to debuff and crammed with forsaken exploit/revel in misery. Before witches,there was a meta like deck type which focused around debuffing in FW but people stoped playing it and witches became the debuff theme. I dont like witches being pushed into the debuff theme,i would rather have a toned down version of reanimate they used to have. I would like for debuff theme to re emerge in FW but not as a racial theme,but rather as a faction wide theme. Just my 2 cents.
Also curse used to stack and it formed a core of the debuff theme,but because of things like witches,it was changed so it dosent stack.
As I see them, Witches work around curse and DMZ; these two mechanics are the basic concepts of their power. However, they also have several debuffs that make up for their general lack of tankiness, a specific relic and a spell that support their Curse debuff. Witches are possibly the theme with the most "dedicated" spells, those that revolve around the Cursed condition. People are just too used to BGs that deal massive damage and win; as I view them, witches are meant to debuff the hell out of their enemies, soak the reduced damage and heal. Even with massive cleansing it'1s very hard to overcome the constant superiority they can impose, specially as the game drags on. Btw @fattyy2k , about your sig: immeasurable would sound better than unmeasurable(trust me there's a difference).
Thank you for the clarification kal. I think perhaps I was just lost amid the overwhelming sense of hatred lol As for the rest, what direction should the witches move? It's been mentioned how they are a bit of a debuff theme with some DMZ synergies. In what way could the theme be developed in that direction as opposed to the simplicity of the Foul Rite BGs?
Actually the reason curse was changed so that it didn't stack was directly due to SPARK CURSE on the crone. what happened was you had shock champs and static greeting champs basically locking down enemies.
FW getting nerfed because of other faction.. I remember when hex became a part of attack chain because of hyenid witchdoctor and it messed etheral soldier thing then.
there's nothing wrong witches doing what you don't want in FW the only thing that bugs me is Sok trying to make them another hitback theme - look at the visionary and extinguisher unique abilities. I hope it ends HERE and starts to make them more into curses and debuffs