This is a very "random idea" thing that I wanted to run by players. The idea is to create ability packages in upgrades, often combining both negative and positives, rather than individual abilities. The advantage here is that it can allow for more diverse upgrade options. The disadvantage is that it is technically ability bloat. ~ Example Undecided Dude DMG 10 SPD 6 RNG 1 DEF 0 HP 45 Class: None Race: Dwarf Attack: Physical Upgrade Set 1 Phantom Dash Leap 3 Charge 3 Upgrade Set 2 Marauder - This champion has Class: Warrior, -1 DEF, Fear 3 and Manic. Duelist - This champion has Class: Monk, Scrapper, +1 SPD, and -3 DMG. Crusher - This champion has Class: Brute, +5 DMG, Weighty and Strike. So this means that this one champion would have 3 dramatically different builds. This wouldn't be used for all champions, or even very many, but it could be an option as appropriate on specific units. So as a more "proper" example, consider something like this: Matriarch Sarinda (Theoretical Example) DMG 10 SPD 6 RNG 4-5 DEF 1 HP 42 Attack: Psychic Stitched Split Hero Death Toll Upgrade Set 1 Sarinda the Eradicator: This champion has Eradicate, Violence Charged, Reclaim Reclaims. Sarinda the Mother: This champion has Reconstruct: Blackguard and Deconstruct. Sardina the Corruptor: This champion has +1 MAX RNG, Corruption and Rabid 1. The idea here is that each upgrade set gives a concrete option for the direction of this champion, and in particular for combination abilities, it's really nice because now we are not stuck with asking you to choose the 2 things on both upgrade sets and having to forgo all other choices. Upgrade Set 2 could be 3 more 'generic' things, or it could even be stat buffs like letting you choose between SPD or more DMG, for example. (Note: These are examples for illustrative purposes and not intended to be "balanced" and obviously I haven't calculated costs.)
Depends would those upgrade "packages" be set in stone ? Would I always have to take manic, fear 3 and -1 def for warrior or could I interchange them with other abilities available for that class ? Another question Would those abilities be all I could have or am i picking 2 similar to how the upgrade path works now ? Would their be class specific abilities where we couldn't go outside that build ? Example: Archer- far shot, piercing shot warrior- block, pummel Would it be a preset of hundreds of abilities for each rune depending on class ? I feel like this would eliminate a bit of depth giving specific class sets unless we had a wide array of abilities to pick from for each class, even then it might make champs feel the same ?
Which would be the limits? like no new classes, abilities that do not exceed X nora, only 1 negative condition one ability one stat..
Yea, no new classes obviously, but I don't think anything else would be a specific limitation, it'd depend on the unit it's going on.
How many abilities would each class have access to, and would this take a significant amount of work on your end ?
This could be a fun nightmare to balance, but besides that I think i like the idea. 18 Base classes, unlimited subclasses, think it need to be somewhat limited by class/faction somehow, got me to open an old RPG book about alchemists. Class: Tinkerer Subclass: Royal Alchemist Perks: - Holy Armaments - -5hp Class: Tinkerer Subclass: Inorganic Alchemist Perks: - Boost Construct - Mason 2 Class: Tinkerer Subclass: Theocratist Perks: - Hollow trail Class: Tinkerer Subclass: Geomancer Perks: - Grant: Tunnel Earth - Class: Tinkerer Subclass: Grand Vizier Perks: - Cackle
Its interesting but seems like a balancing nightmare especially since many of the current upgrades are heavily ingrained and tuned for that specific champion to function(skeletal bezerker, blood fiend, crazed warmandril, etc. Theres no choice on these runes, they need their current abilities) Definitely interesting. Id advise against putting something as debilitating as weighty on brutes though, many of them require freedom of movement and already have plenty of damage(half the kanen roster for example)
They aren't meant to be on all Brutes or anything. The point is that I have make a champion say... Undecided Dude DMG 10 SPD 6 RNG 1 DEF 0 HP 45 Class: None Race: Dwarf Attack: Physical Upgrade Set 1 Phantom Dash Leap 3 Charge 3 Upgrade Set 2 Marauder - This champion has Class: Warrior, -1 DEF, Fear 3 and Manic. Duelist - This champion has Class: Monk, Scrapper, +1 SPD, and -3 DMG. Crusher - This champion has Class: Brute, +5 DMG, Weighty and Strike.
As for how much work it is, the packages wouldn't contain new abilities as they'd be packages of stats and existing abilities. However, it IS technically a new ability in terms of database and code, even if there's no new functionality.
Ah, misread. Got it stuck in my head that those upgrades are only meant for specific classes. Well if the upgrades are meant for specific runes in the future i dont see why it would be too crazy, It wouldnt even have to be ability bloat since with a package youre getting a lot of abilities per upgrade, therefore limit the amount of core/base abilities on the rune and leave the idenity of that rune up to the player. Though for the basic ball of stats to work with three different identities it would need be aggressively average, which means were there a lot of runes with this design, theyd all feel the same. It wouldnt feel like the undecided dude the dwarf, it would feel like marauder with a dwarf skin because undecided dude the draksar has the same stats and possibly the same upgrade making it the same rune in two different factions(and faction identity is poxnoras biggest strength imo) Its neat but i'd use it sparingly. Possibly on a rune with many identities. (IE; mutant in SL undergoing rapid change, Martial arts master with different styles, FW building a flesh golems and swapping out parts, IS building actual golems and doing the same) Hell, they could possibly do it after theyre deployed so they can adapt to what the player needs. As an example with the flesh golem, Its upgrade system is based off charges and it gains charges based on death since this is a FW rune and youre using corpses to change parts. Its first, free upgrade is duelist since the FW player is using this rune to run around font capping and wants the extra speed. Once its duty is done it will have some charges from the fight for mid font, so it scoots to front line with its speed and morphs into a marauder, applying fear and getting a manic attack.
I do like it but i feel like this would be a step away from the accessibility we'd been trying to accomplish.
These types of choices already exist in the game- just look at draksar shifter, the elf shapeshifter, or that boghopper that trains tads. They can change their role on the fly, making them more interesting than if they had to choose their form in their upgrades. Also, we already have multiple champions for each role in a bg. We don't need one champ that can fit multiple roles. On a positive note, I do like the idea of a duelist champion - it's an interesting but mostly unexplored archetype.
I would say, this has a very good place for heroes and avatars. Heroes really should be more versatile than they are, and would benefit greatly from multiple build paths. I would say for others, it simply isn't necessary, and will cause headaches. I'm guessing you are doing / thinking of this to help make designing themes into a central part of the game a smoother transition. However, I think it should stick to heroes, and I think this idea will be met with praise and open arms if it does only apply to heroes/supers. Heroes are sort of central to lore and should be able to slip into themes more easily.
I like the idea of heroes having multiple upgrade paths and it might give them their unique feel back. Currenty the only heroes I run ever are xulos, talgar, menelaus, grimlic, bastion and that's it. Does forglar even have a meta hero anymore ? @Sokolov I could see the class system on all deck limit 1 units, other then that I feel it would be very hard to implement something like this when pox has so many abilities.
I like the idea, means you can play runes more suited to your own preference and play style. Also agree that this would be cool if it was exclusive to heroes, or unique/ important lore characters.
So as a more "proper" example, consider something like this: Matriarch Sarinda (Theoretical Example) DMG 10 SPD 6 RNG 4-5 DEF 1 HP 42 Attack: Psychic Stitched Split Hero Death Toll Upgrade Set 1 Sarinda the Eradicator: This champion has Eradicate, Violence Charged, Reclaim Reclaims. Sarinda the Mother: This champion has Reconstruct: Blackguard and Deconstruct. Sardina the Corruptor: This champion has +1 MAX RNG, Corruption and Rabid 1. The idea here is that each upgrade set gives a concrete option for the direction of this champion, and in particular for combination abilities, it's really nice because now we are not stuck with asking you to choose the 2 things on both upgrade sets and having to forgo all other choices. Upgrade Set 2 could be 3 more 'generic' things, or it could even be stat buffs like letting you choose between SPD or more DMG, for example.
I think that the Corruptor version being called "SARDINA" rather than "SARINDA" is the best part of this example. As for the topic itself - will share my thoughts about it in a few days.