Incoming wall-o-text! @s4ndm4ns Thank you for your willingness to admit to this. I understand the desire to protect your favorite BG and, being a fan of Frost Amp, I don't want to kill off the theme. I encourage you to stick around even if it's just to pitch ideas for buffing Frost Amp at us over and over again. Something is bound to stick like Ice Dragon ;P ----- @TheNidhogg You support my point with your final comment, but I'll attempt to clarify: Phylactery Bound being overcosted is what results in it being a sandbag. It's not because I don't want the ability, but because its forced presence (raising his cost) discourages players from using him even in the role(s) he was designed for. Unless you abandon your point that Phylactery Bound is overcosted, I don't see how you can argue against calling it a sandbag. I do recognize that just switching it with Chill does little to fix the underlying cost issue beyond sweeping it under the rug, though. At one point I did suggest swapping in Chill 2 for (a recosted) Phylactery Bound, but it was literally my first draft. Many preferred reducing its cost over moving it off base. Eternal Lich was brought up for similar reasons. I wasn't suggesting that we should "swap it for Chill, kthxbai! " I was only presenting one of many possible options for addressing the problem and its likely results. I'll admit that it probably wasn't the best example given your reaction. ----- @Hiyashi Whether or not I like the Crystal theme has nothing to do with my argument. PLEASE CLICK ME FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS FROZEN The linked post is from a discussion on the Crystal theme (Trail: Crystal, specifically) that I'm going to continue linking until everyone understands why I have a problem with parking Endless Devotion in upgrades. I'm not pushing this change because I like Crystals. I merely want a healthier build diversity. I consider it disingenuous to claim the Crystal theme is healthy based on the problems I cover in the linked post. It trips over itself in ways that need to be changed, one way or another. Several Crystal champs can't function in their intended role as a direct result of losing key abilities when picking Endless Devotion as an upgrade. My opinion on the matter was lost in the flurry of posts before the one you've taken issue with: With exception to certain Crystal champs, these comments accurately reflect my current opinion: HOWEVER calisk asked the following: Pedeguerra responded: He suggests a very simple set of swaps except for Crystal Howler which regains Call to Arms as an upgrade. This is what s4ndm4ns was reacting to, and my posts served to point out the problems with what I perceived to be s4ndm4ns' motivations for opposing a change to Endless Devotion. Note that Pedeguerra encouraged others to suggest alternatives. I doubt he'd oppose appropriately chosen additions like Call to Arms. I'd be fine with moving Endless Devotion directly to base while adding a new upgrade to each Crystal champ. Unfortunately, I don't see this being well-received for certain champions like Crystal Dragon (already very viable) and Crystal Crawler (Trail: Crystal needs to shift to upgrades). I consider the best option to be a mixture of Pedeguerra's swaps and new upgrades. I'd want another round of changes for the champs utilizing Trail: Crystal, but that's a lower priority that should be addressed later on. This is dangerously close to a straw man argument. My exact words: My use of "intended" is exclusive to Crystal Dragon. I made no assertions regarding the intended functionality of Jakei Shaman. I referenced her to highlight recent changes that can be used to infer some amount of intention regarding the Crystal BG. That said, Jakei Shaman and Icesnap are clearly intended as options for Frost Amp. She has Amplify Frost on base while he has it in upgrades. She's still a support unit for Frost Amp but can adopt a damage role in an Elemental BG. This doesn't necessarily mean a Crystal BG, but there is significant overlap. Given that Endless Devotion is tied to Jakei, she's now one of the strongest candidates for a Crystal BG. Her changes also indicate that when used in that setting (Revere: Icesnap), Frozen/Slowed are ideal focal points for the theme. This is why I point to Endless Devotion + Freezing Aura as the default setup for Crystal BGs. Catalyst: Frost is definitely a strong option (I pointed this out) due Amplify Frost, though. Right now, it can be very difficult to ascertain a direction or cohesive purpose in many themes. I blame this more on the haphazardly assigned upgrades resulting from the revamp than anything else. Given that Gedden has repeatedly admitted to not understanding certain themes (Wurmz), I look to a rune's design pre-revamp to piece together its intended design. PRE-REVAMP Jakei Shaman Base = Attack: Magical | Cleanse | Snow-Fall 2 | Vulnerability: Fire | Vulnerability: Poison Upgrades = Amplify Frost | Frost Nova 2 | Health 1 | Damage 1 Crystal Dragon Base = Fascinating Luminescence | Catalyst: Frost | Endless Devotion | Flight | Freezing Aura Upgrades = Ice Veil | Swoop | Bulwark: Jakei | Trail: Crystal Jakei Shaman was a mess and Crystal Dragon combined all the things. Her changes shift her back towards what she was originally intended for while his changes are a result of the stated goals for the revamp. To me, it's very clear that he was intended for Frost Amp and Crystal BGs, but the power reduction of the revamp leads me to believe that in order to maximize his efficiency in a Crystal BG (his primary theme) we may have to split up the Catalyst: Frost + Freezing Aura combo. Why is Crystal his primary theme? Because his name, flavor text and abilities all point to it. The Luminescence line of abilities was created specifically for the Crystal theme. If you disagree, feel free to explain how you would go about moving Endless Devotion to base. It sounds like we have a lot of time to work through this. This is a dangerous way to categorize sandbag abilities because it isn't rooted in objective reasoning. Every champion needs a clearly defined role made apparent by its base abilities and default upgrades. Providing flexibility for BG diversity is what the remaining upgrades are for (IMO). Your definition would allow me to state that Abominable is a sandbag on Wailing Yeti because I'm currently using him in an SP/ST Howling Winds (Sonic) BG. Clearly Adaptive: Tundra and Immunity: Frost are sandbags on Jakei Heretic because I'm using her in an FW/ST Fear BG with mostly FW spells. Every negative ability becomes a sandbag rather than a design choice to balance out beneficial ability costs. Do you see where I'm going with this? If we don't anchor each champion in a given role/theme where it is easiest to use and/or most effective in, we'll reach a point where the current complaints regarding lack of champion identity (ST beaters hoorah!) or nonsensical patches ("buft my fav roonz, do u liek? ") are (more) legitimate problems. To that end, until significant changes are made to the Crystal theme that clearly shift their synergy in a new direction, I will continue to push for what I believe to be their intended use(s). I'm willing to discuss changing this (Wurmz is doing this), but I have yet to read anything (in any thread) that convinces me they shouldn't function in the way I propose.
What's the problem with the current Endless Devotion being base anyway? That isn't useless outside of Crystals. As long as your deck has a number of Jakei that can be nearby, it also reduces the rune's CD to 0...
I can't bring myself to support any champion changes that leave or create an upgrade path full of ability ranks. If she doesn't end up with six different upgrades to pick from, using a patch slot to change her feels like a waste opportunity. I could propose options like I did with Frosting Glaive, but I'd love to see what you'd change, first.
REDONE ------------------------------------------------------ NEW Jakei Maiden (nora modifier remains the same) Faction: ST Race: Jakei Nora: 69 Class: Shaman DMG: 0 SPD: 5 RNG: 1 DEF: 0 HP: 41 Base Abilities: Arctic Cleansing Aura Hearten Easy Target Heal Champion: 2 Upgrade Path: 1 Heal Self - 3 <-4 Nora> Heal Mass - 3 <Default> Divine Favor - 2 <+1 Nora> Upgrade Path: 2 Charm - 3 <-2 Nora> Soothing Serenade <Default> Empathy <-3 Nora> ------------------------------------------------------ NEW Jakei Maiden (nora modifier reduced by 8) Faction: ST Race: Jakei Nora: 71 Class: Shaman DMG: 0 SPD: 5 RNG: 1 DEF: 0 HP: 41 Base Abilities: Arctic Cleansing Aura Hearten Heal Champion: 2 Upgrade Path: 1 Heal Self - 3 <-4 Nora> Heal Mass - 3 <Default> Divine Favor - 2 <+1 Nora> Upgrade Path: 2 Charm - 3 <-2 Nora> Soothing Serenade <Default> Empathy <-3 Nora> Both of these Suggested changes make her much more of a support rune while making her cost reasonable for what she does. One upgrade path was changed slightly to give her more options. Instead of two ranks of charm one was removed (Kept the other in-case you really like charm) in favor of soothing serenade. While the other is supporting her role as a healer. @calisk @Entrepidus (I got a little lazy and stole a part of shaman's kit) thoughts?
Thing is, that with Jakei Shaman change, Ice Dragon even with amp is not that good anymore, Icesnap will be picked 9/10 times.
since I see a lot of people bring up the ice dragon what is it you guys would like to make it different from snap. I get that he's cheaper and that a lot of people have latched onto the idea of detection, is it just that you guys want a cheaper uglier looking ice snap? I mean ultimately if we wanted to push amp again, we can turn him into another generic frost turret, but is that really all you'd want from this thing ^^;; as mentioned above what if you took cone off of him in favor of arctic bolt, or maybe something else to make him different from snap.
Adding Easy Target and removing Abash makes her as squishy or squishier than most Fairies. Sniping her with ranged would be much easier than using her effectively. This same problem makes Heal Self 3 a poor upgrade choice because it's unlikely to keep her alive if she's taking fire. That moves the first set of changes off the table in my eyes. I like the second version but with the following adjustments: Jakei Maiden - [0 DMG | 5 SPD | 1 RNG | 0 DEF | 41 HP] Path 1 = Divine Favor 2 | Heal Mass 3 | Weaken Spells Path 2 = Charm 3 | Force Barrier 2 | Soothing Serenade Base = Arctic | Cleansing Aura | Heal Self 2 | Hearten (Default upgrades = Heal Mass 3 + Soothing Serenade) Trade Heal Champion 2 for Heal Self 2 on base, Empathy for the old Force Barrier 2 and Heal Self 3 for Weaken Spells. Creating distinct healers is difficult when you stack too many healing abilities, so I'd prefer we didn't borrow from Jakei Shaman. I'd make room for her in several BGs with this kit. A quick outline: Ice Dragon - [10 DMG | 6 SPD | 2-3 RNG | 0 DEF | 46 HP] Path 1 = Arctic Bolt | ??? | Snow Blast Path 2 = Amplify Frost | ??? | Ice Front Base = Arctic Flight | Attack: Frost | Detection 2 | ??? (Default upgrades = Arctic Bolt + Amplify Frost) I left upgrades open while we're figuring out what role we want him to have beyond Frost Amp and maybe Terrain? I also shifted him to ranged to support the idea of "spewing" ice (Arctic Bolt) and lowered his health to be in line with a ranged Hoarfrost Dragon. It matches the long neck and gimpy arms of his rune art/sprite, IMO.
The thing is heal self doesn't seem very flavorful on her I was reluctant to even include on upgrades (Some of that reluctance being from having it already on shaman).
Ignorance runs strong with this one. Prob been playing ST longer then you, doubt you even remember what a Shaman used to be. Ignore my post if you want out of ignorance but this faction has been completely ***** from the glory it once had.
I do, it's stronger now. far more interesting as well. of course back then AMP was stronger, jakei shardmasters were one of the strongest ranged blasters in the game. we also won 9 games out of 10 by simply dropping 3-4 aoes in a row after storing nora, not really an interesting way to play, for about a month when jakei snowcharger came out we ruled with impeeding snow, then that was nerfed into the dirt, it was also when jakei shaman was released. that was the only time terrain was ever viable but it was broken beyond belief and did not last long, of course back then every faction didn't have 30 flyers and 20 relocation methods.
Not quite sure why you think playing long means you know what shoebox is. The Jakei shaman is not shoebox. You could have been playing since pox came out. I don't really care. Guess I wanted to continue the ignorance. I'll pass the baton if you don't wanna continue the ignorance ignore my post.
REDONE ------------------------------------------------------ NEW Jakei Maiden (nora modifier remains the same) Faction: ST Race: Jakei Nora: 69 Class: Shaman DMG: 0 SPD: 5 RNG: 1 DEF: 0 HP: 41 Base Abilities: Arctic Cleansing Aura Hearten Easy Target Heal Champion: 2 Upgrade Path: 1 Weaken Spells <-4 Nora> Heal Mass - 3 <Default> Divine Favor - 2 <+1 Nora> Upgrade Path: 2 Abash <+2 Nora> Soothing Serenade <Default> Force Barrier - 2 <+0 Nora> ------------------------------------------------------ NEW Jakei Maiden (nora modifier reduced by 8) Faction: ST Race: Jakei Nora: 71 Class: Shaman DMG: 0 SPD: 5 RNG: 1 DEF: 0 HP: 41 Base Abilities: Arctic Cleansing Aura Hearten Heal Champion: 2 Upgrade Path: 1 Weaken Spells <-4 Nora> Heal Mass - 3 <Default> Divine Favor - 2 <+1 Nora> Upgrade Path: 2 Charm - 3 <-2 Nora> Soothing Serenade <Default> Force Barrier - 2 <+0 Nora> Both of these Suggested changes make her much more of a support rune while making her cost reasonable for what she does. One upgrade path was changed slightly to give her more options. Instead of two ranks of charm one was removed (Kept the other in-case you really like charm) in favor of soothing serenade. While the other is supporting her role as a healer. FINAL
