Can we walk about Catharsis Bloom?

I hope this has been said... The UD version relies on the enemy standing under its dmg zone, for its dmg to have any effect beyond the turn its deployed. Whereas the KF version you can position for on your own, meaning its aoe is far more effective as the turns go onward. The deployed effects are relative, beyond that the majority of similarities end.

 

have you played against KF/UD ash pre-revamp? They will contest all your fonts with just 25 nora. and they got four of them 2x osarius 2x bloom. I wonder how happy you are playing against that kinda BG. Unless ofc, you're planning on playing with 4 diff detection units (since they got FR and Vortex and what have you reserved for detection units)

You've to spend 1 turn (spend 2 attacks probably, so thats 8 AP, not counting moving into threat range and spend 3 AP on one hit). This is if you know where the relic is

Given that you don't know where the relic is, you gotta deploy a detection champ. What if you're playing in a larger map like ST? Sure you're gonna see the shadowspawned relic after 2 turns probably? going to your most bottom font or the most top font. Then, after you destroy it and move somewhere else, the opposing stealth champ just hangs around nearby and deploy another stealth relic. Moreover, at 25 nora, you basically profit from denying opp's font even for 1 turn....

Is that really fun? I don't think so. So why r u supporting it? Only for bot AI purposes? What about those in ranked? Do you think people that doesn't have access to Bloom and Osarius are having fun??? And if you propose every faction to have shadowspawned relics, wouldn't that mean we'll value Detection more than anything? That would
1) limit design space in deck-building,
2) every racial will hustle devs to make good detection options,
3) basically pseudo-detect grunts and long-range will be valued more (mounted hawkmaster/falconer), thus building up the metagame (everyone will be running KF/IS because both falconer and hawkmaster is pseudo-long range harasser that detects) similar to pre-revamp where everyone uses the same lineups for every faction just because there are OP runes lingering in the meta.

I really don't get why you're against nerfing a 25Nora shadowspawned relic that has damage/heal AoE 2 and SELF REPLICATES itself. Its 25 nora. ....

 

Explaining my point would be unnecessary at this point.

 

The problem is that I still havn't seen any real point from you other than what you wrote about playing vs AI that would be something like: "I want OP runes vs AI"
If that's your only reason then there are plenty of other runes that work very well vs. AI
If you have any other reason like you think the cost compared to it's effect are reasonable it would be nice if you could put it forward.

If you read what others say they will tell you that a 25Nora Relic that has shadowspawn would be played alone, the fact that it heals and propergates is extra on top of that.
I don't know how old or new you are to pox, but relics that can easy contest font have always been a problem.

 

I actually think that Head of Osarius is better than Catharsis bloom (used it 2x in a bunch of UD splits - it was insane), but that's not really here nor there. Catharsis bloom did not replace Dreambox. Sorry, it's just not true. There were maybe a couple of Dreamboxes in the meta (Probably literally a couple: 2), but no one I knew was using it at a high level before Catharsis bloom came out.

The old meta reports (easily visible on poxbase) support my anecdotal experience. There are a ton of things I'd run before Dreambox, not least of which is Poisonquill trap as an additional perseverance counter.

However, I've already loudly voiced my opinion on the specific change I think should occur.

 

Legato literally said that, and he is who I was responding to. Grimlic's Portal I see about as often as Dreambox, which is to say, almost never. Nothing you said really contradicts what I said so I am happy to agree with it. My point is that in probably the last two+ years Dreambox usage has been extremely low.

 

Meh, those dreamboxes in the meta must've been mine then. It's underrated.

Anyway, the point was that stealthed relic that did NOTHING is still runnable just for contesting purposes.

 

I agree that the stealth part of the relic is what makes the rune OP, not its healing potential. If the rune changes, just remove shadowspawn.

 

If they changed nothing on Bloom, it could PROBABLY sustain a 45 nora price tag.

I think 35-40 would be a better spot for it if nothing changes. But the problem is the combination of abilities it has, not necessarily the cost. Propogating is cool, healing is cool, shadowspawn is cool, but all 3 might be just a bit much, less healing, or less propogating, or less stealth.

Propogating should stay, it's a flower.

So that leaves it's stealth and healing mechanics. I think these should be the focus of trying to fix the rune, not some of the wild ideas proposed in this thread.

In the meantime, I'll keep deploying it.

 

Runnable is a very low bar. If you're a good player you can get away with running suboptimal runes. That doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Dreambox also had upside which you mentioned (stealing TLC, etc). I think I wouldn't pay more than about 20 Nora for a do nothing 1 hp relic. Not because it's not worth 20 Nora when you contest with it, but because it'd be utter Bane Shift in every other situation.

 

I would probably still call it op a 25 nora relic that heals 8 hp and just makes more of itself? Nah its really the fact that most relics are atleast 35.. The good relics poison trap, echo chamber, Emerald, rock trap all cost over 30 nora. Lose stealth and cost up to 35 nora I think would be fair.

 

In my opinion the stealth/detect mechanics in this game are pretty terrible.

 

in really large maps it can get stupid. but the interaction itself is interesting to say the least. really makes your head spin while you're chased by that 02:00 timer

 

1:45*

 

Some wrong words in there, but the overall point is:
Shadowspawned relics are just amazing for contesting potential, if they just are 20-30 and featured 1:1 nora to hp ratio and did nothing else, I'd consider them.
What made these amazing is that they were essentially very close to that, and even exceeded it with the propagate mechanic which ultimately isn't necessary and also probably the leading reason they received shadowspawned.

I was really happy whne HoO came out since I always like stealthed relics, but really wanted it the most in UD (The one UD was supposed before was bugged and WAS never fixed, I don't even know if that's been fixed, tbh). These are just far too good, and I saw it coming on release/am honestly surprised it wasn't more of a thing immediately.

 

I just lost a game i should have won agains devils due to head of osarius. He got about 7 over the course of the game so thats what, 175 free nora of relics? Balanced...

 

Not going to disagree with the premise that these runes are unbalanced, but this argument is fallacious.

 

I am thinking back to the original OP relic contest -- sacred fountain when it was something like 20 nora for 40hps.

The commonality is the cheap cost and the difficulty in getting rid of it.

Seems like if you remove the cheapness, say by making it 40nora, you reduce the spamability, you reduce the cost effectiveness, and increase the tempo hit.

To me this seems to fix the problem while keeping how it functions - which most people seem to like.

 

Maybe keeping the functionality and raising the cost for Head of Osarius is a good idea but for Catharsis Bloom I'd rather change the functionality some and keep the cost low.

 

Why do relics even contest fonts ? It makes no sense especially in pox where your opponent goes first they rush ur font and deploy relic so they don't have to potentially put a unit in your font to contest. The biggest issue here is not just ur losing nora because your font's contested but because you just lost a spawn zone for new champs closer to the battle. Wouldn't it make the game more strategic if your opponent had to contest with a real champ that way it puts both players at a disadvantage.