If it is opposite upgrades that enable the champ in other themes, then I don't see a problem. If it is opposite abilities that would be useful in addition to the racial, I agree with your point.
Regen is an upgrade path for just about every Draksar. I think you mean violent, but your point is understood. I was thinking that you could have an upgrade tree that is something like: A. Endless Devotion, B. Protective, C. Creep and Crawl
Darklord, bud, if you arent seeing the problem it is probably because you are too focused on PvE and not a ST player yourself. I mean no offense, but please dont try to derail something the community already agrees with: Endless Devotion needs to be on base.
I was trying to understand better, and I think I see where you're coming from. It is like Skeezick Alliance. On most if not all champs it should be base to prevent loss of an upgrade tree. In the case of Skeezick, there are exceptions, such as Skeezick Arthromancer, which is designed to be useful in other themes than Skeezick, and has an upgrade tree designed that way. I don't see any current crystal champs that would benefit from that, but it could be a possibility in the future.
Yeah, you got that right. For example, Crystal Phoenix doesnt need that thing on base, but its an exception. Dragon, Howler, Yeti, Mastodon, all those champs need ED on base for them to work.
so here's a question then what ability would you guys put on upgrade in place of endless for eahc of these champions, it doesn't need ot be the same ability for each champ btw. this would be the only change made to the crystal champs, as to get all of them done in a single suggestion.
My thoughts (pretty straightfoward, but if people wanna be more creative go to town): Crawler: Trail Crystal Dragon: Catalyst Frost Howler: Call to Arms Mastodon: Impairing Feedback Wolverine: Thirst for Battle, but please change his other Rend upgrade abilities (he already has Eviscerating Luminesce on base ffs) Yeti: Stunning These are the only ones I think should have it on base too, btw.
Seriously? Dragon? So wait, I will get Endless which I do not need in any of my decks on base, his siganture and best ability will be no brain upgrade and freezing aura will be lost... great... Exactly what I need.
Catalyst frost will definitely be the no brainer upgrade. trail: crystal has to move to upgrade path it makes swap unusable. +1 Howler: call to arms +1 Mastadon: Impairing feedback +1 Wolverine: If thirst for battle is moved to upgrades I would like it on the rend path and have something else replace ED on upgrades (selfish) Yeti: stunning has to much of a cost differential to put it on that upgrade path or on a upgrade path at all
Well, I know he will loose his meta appeal, but maybe thats exactly what it needs - to really shine inside his theme, and be so so in meta bgs. After all, his Luminescence is one of the best. You could make a case for Catalyst going a different route, but Dragon is one of the key units to have ED on base.
ED should definitely be on base but Catalyst frost shouldn't be moved to upgrades. Maybe I can think of something to keep his cost near the sweet spot.
This is a really selfish stance to take. Crystal Dragon was designed for the Crystal theme. Just because you'd like to co-opt him into your themes doesn't mean he shouldn't be anchored in his intended theme. I'm the kind of player that will happily push for a greater diversity of BGs, but I also understand the importance of respecting the the original function of each champion. In this case, he's a Crystal champion that has the flexibility to support many other themes, not the other way around. I refer you (and @darklord48) to this link (again). Please stop attacking the desire to put Endless Devotion on base until you've read that. There really isn't a good excuse not to do it.
Why sandbag the champion? What difference does it make for someone building Crystal theme if he has ED base and Catalyst on upgrade or other way around? You still get both for your deck, while for non Crystal decks if ED is base, its a sandbag and one less ability that could be played in any deck.
I dont buy it, runes should be designed to fit as many themes as possible, best would be if one upgrade path was pure theme based.
This will be my final attempt to illustrate the problem with your reasoning. I'm beginning to think you're throwing "sandbag" around without a solid grasp on its meaning. An ability serves as a "sandbag" when its forced presence detracts from the intended role for a champion. It is literally weighing down the champion's ability to function within that role. Phylactery Bound (30N) is a great example of a sandbag for Hoarfrost Lich as he's clearly intended for Frost synergy but is far too expensive to be viable. Switching it with a Chill rank is merely one possibility for removing it as a sandbag so he can exist both in FW/ST Frost and FW Liches where the higher cost is easier to justify via Nora recovery methods. Trail: Crystal is a sandbag for Crystal Crawler because it directly interferes with any BG he's placed in. He is very affordable but has trouble functioning properly in a Crystal BG for which he was intended. Swapping Trail: Crystal with Endless Devotion is a straight buff across the board as he gains functionality both in his theme (picking Carnivore until Trail: Crystal is addressed) and in Arthropods (Creep and Crawl) without needlessly erecting barriers everywhere he goes. Coming back to Crystal Dragon, you cannot deny that he's intended for a Crystal BG. To that end, he should be most effective in that setting. With the changes to Jakei Shaman, Endless Devotion + Freezing Aura is the obvious choice for supporting a Crystal BG. Catalyst: Frost is a compelling choice (which is great!), but Catalyst: Frost + Freezing Aura doesn't align with the intended use for Crystal Dragon. Yes, swapping Catalyst: Frost with Endless Devotion would affect your method of play by preventing Catalyst: Frost + Frozen Aura, but it would not "sandbag" Crystal Dragon's capacity to function within his intended theme. The correct way to phrase your concern is that this change would nerf Crystal Dragon in a Frost Amp BG while buffing him in a Crystal BG. He doesn't gain a sandbag through Endless Devotion given that its current cost is 4N (likely reduced to a paltry 1/2N with the removal of Immortality) and he would adequately support his intended theme. You could argue that "you people keep nerfin' mah Frosties! WAI?!" but the reality is he was never intended for Frost Amp. I would rather his role in Frost Amp be shifted to optional and other shoebox runes that are more appropriate for a Frost Amp be adjusted to optimum efficiency within that theme. It is very much like the conversation I had with @calisk regarding his goals for Blizzard Elemental. I want there to be options for supporting Frost Amp, but we both agree that his intended purpose is terrain generation. I italicized the crap out of "intended," but that's really what this is all about. The ultimate design intention for any given champion determines whether or not an ability detracts from that intended role enough to be considered a "sandbag." Moving Endless Devotion to base sans Immortality does not qualify for this definition. This is why I support your desire to add Amplify Frost to Ice Dragon
I guess you are right. I think I am trying to defend whatever is left out of frost amp... and this guy is only reason why I still have any chance to win anything... Anyway, looks like I need to take a break and wait couple patches, I get frustrated too much lately.
pretty sure i'd have an easier time convincing the council to all give up their faction suggestions in favor of buffing gnark to the god of creation status, then them letting dispel into a prot faction ^^
