Patch Notes: January 2nd, 2022 Discussion.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Etherielin, Jan 2, 2022.

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  1. Etherielin

    Etherielin The Floof Cultist

    Link to the patch notes: Click me!
    Link to the spreadsheet: Click me!

    Feel free to discuss the patch here! What are your thoughts and opinions on it?
  2. Bondman007

    Bondman007 I need me some PIE!

    I want to say that the work overall is nice. That's cool you added Fanfaire and Grimthir to forge. Well done.
    As a long time ST player though, I have to say that seeing these nerfs over and over again are rough. When your faction just gets annihilated, it's hard to watch.
    Not saying I don't necessarily understand why, but sheesh. It's efficiency and synergy have taken some massive hits.
    Aside from Yetis (which I never play), it seems the faction is now a far cry from where it was.
    Would be easier to just delete ST altogether than to continue to put it into the trash can slowly. Would be less work.

    Anyways, thanks for keeping the game fresh. The work you do is appreciated.
  3. dsjtheman

    dsjtheman I need me some PIE!

    I like the changes to most of the champs... however, would be interested in why youd allow crafting of fan fair and grimthir but not Harby's? Back in the day I traded damn near my kidney to get a fan faire and still i felt lucky. I could have gotten a harby instead but settled on fan faire. From what Ive seen on the forums, the only thing holding you back from doing this is long time players/traders that want to keep its value. You should make everything craftable thats old if your doing it now for other rare stuff. It insinuates that your catoring to certain players.
  4. GabrielQ

    GabrielQ I need me some PIE!

    Eth cannot create cards out of thin air, but he can try and retrieve hidden ones. So it's not entirely based on his willingness to do things.
  5. Bushido

    Bushido Devotee of the Blood Owl

    St needs nerfs to things like low cost units that are op with +10 hp, and their healing which is by far best in class. I'd also say they still have many spells that cost too little, like humble. However, I wasn't a fan of the further frigid blast nerf, it hasn't been the issue of ST since the first nerf imo. Crystal Phoenix was far more deserving.

    As far as keeping the game fresh, well, yes this patch has certainly done that, I agree, but I really have hated the design choices that have been made up to this point. Everything is so rock paper scissors, and the real competitive decks have not changed. The patches have lowered the skill floor, but not raised the ceiling imo. Not saying that raising the ceiling is an easy task, even best players can't all agree on how to do that, but the floor is the issue. It seems like so many of the new runes are "well you should have run a hard counter, that's why you lost" which has never been the fun thing about pox.

    I would have liked to see more interesting ways of contesting fonts personally as a focus, and changes to utility spells. Key word being interesting.
  6. dsjtheman

    dsjtheman I need me some PIE!

    Is this 100% the official and only reason then? If thats the case then I understand. So can he/you say on the record he is unable to make harby's craftable? Is he willing to but just unable like your insinuating? I just want an official response because in past debates on this, your explanation was never part of the reason not to do it... it was only because of reluctance to not devalue the rune for collectors/traders.
    Bondman007 likes this.
  7. Bondman007

    Bondman007 I need me some PIE!

    I agree, "devaluing" runes on a dead game is an absurd reason not to make them craftable...
    The inability to, ok, understood. Hurting someone's feelings because Harby's are worthless...LOL o_O
    dsjtheman likes this.
  8. Etherielin

    Etherielin The Floof Cultist

    Initially, when I had taken over, I wanted to make all LIM runes craftable right away but was met with a hard disagreement from Cortices who informed me that such a move would require an agreement from all CEOs and not just him. In the meantime we focused on figuring out how to expand the admin panel capabilities, which resulted in being able to modify abilities to a certain extent and clone existing runes.

    I have also worked closely with Cortices on making LIM parity changes to also show what I have in mind so that he has solid ground to stand on when discussing this point with the other CEOs. As for Grim'thir and Fan Faire they have been a major balance point in K'thir Forest's history, with Fan Faire itself being screamed at as a pay to win rune, and Grim'thir making major splashes in Illusion, Magic Amp and even Meta decks. This left me with two options:
    a) Nerf them into the ground, thus erasing them from the meta but making the owners of said runes angry as they're now rare but beyond usability.
    b) Create forgeable versions of them, thus officially including them into the balance cycles of K'thir Forest, while making the LIM versions unique (Grim'thir's unique taunt and Fan Faire keeping its name until more can be done). This preserves their worth in most collectors' eyes as they retain their uniqueness and also lets me work on reigning them in if they cause issues.

    I opted for option B and talked to Cortices. I explained my stance on the matter and - as per his request - talked to Sokolov (as I presume he wanted to hear his thoughts as that of a former balance dev) what he would do if he still worked on the game and he told me that there's no need to add the craftables unless it solves some issue - this issue being the fact that there are two meta-worthy inclusions excluded from availability. That's why we have a LEG Grim'thir (with LIM Grim'thir now having access to a nice, unique taunt) and Inspiration (the LEG equivalent of Fan Faire).

    It's an ongoing process and this kind of information is available publicly on Discord whenever I am asked about it. I hope that clears things up.
    Bondman007 and dsjtheman like this.
  9. dsjtheman

    dsjtheman I need me some PIE!

    So there is no influence at all from players then? Would be nice to know to eliminate "from the outside looking" in perceptions. (2nd) Are you saying that you could propose the same treatment for harbs to have a legendary variant and give the limited a taunt? This would also keep the traders/collectors happy right?
  10. dsjtheman

    dsjtheman I need me some PIE!

    Also thanks for the clarification on a lot of what I was looking for.
  11. Etherielin

    Etherielin The Floof Cultist

    I did ask if people would be happy with them becoming craftable on Discord while working on the patch and the reception has been positive. The final say always belongs to Octopi, as with every other change even if we have a massive leeway in terms of what we can do. I just make sure that what the community needs and what the Octopi agrees to are one and the same.
    dsjtheman likes this.
  12. MogaBait

    MogaBait I need me some PIE!


    - Next to the changes that describe the champs total nora modifier, could you put the relative change in that modifier (maybe in parentheses)?
    - I'm against next patch Flight changes
    - For context of the below comments, most of my matches have been against FW and KF.


    - Poison Ele: Cool
    - Voodoo Shamfie: Lose Blood Bond 2 for Blood Bond 1. Soul Vitality is another option but this makes him more splashable (assuming you're trying to avoid that). On a personal level, I hate further addition of Fluorish and view it as a problematic ability.
    - Snaptooth Deadeye: Haven't played against it yet. Deep Wounds splits will be more annoying but it's been accepted as a valid deck archetype at this point.


    - Toll Taker: Cool
    - Disturbed/Haunting Spirit: Nerfing Cyclopean Firecase and Yeti Spirit for being efficient, passive damage font harassers feels internally inconsistent with the changes to Spirit. A lot has already been said about Spirit on Discord and it looks like it is already planned to undergo further rework for next patch, so I won't say more.
    - Angel of Death: Cool. Been annoying to play against so far since I've only matched her in the context of Dread splits. On my personal watch list but no suggested changes.


    Still evaluating. I have only played against AoProtection so far.

    KF & Tortuns

    - Delim Changes: On personal watch list but I can't comment much yet as I've only played against it once and the opposing player messed up early on.
    - Grimlic of K'thir: Making forgeable along with Fan Faire is a plus. I have my reservations because Grimlic remains borderline OP only because he is designed within the context and limitations of UD. KF has greater access to support and damage modifiers and is one of the best phalanx factions in the game. Not recommending changes but I think this should be watched or revert the changes that have made KF phalanx even stronger. I.e., Stop giving KF Command: X. Giving a faction access to abilities as strong as Command: X that it did not have access to before is a buff. There was similar discussion a year ago when the suggested "nerf" to Corgi Ranger was to give it access to Command: Dodge.
    - Tortun Galesinger: Same problem as pre-nerf Elven Bard -- reverie champ that does too much. Cool champ within context of Tortuns but is too splashable. Keep UL 1. Even keep Battle Hymn. Remove Command: Dodge. I won't suggest a replacement since I am not a Tortun player. Maybe Tortun's Trade (Flavortext mentions that Galesingers amass hoards of coin that rival Captains) or Shroud (KF already has Shroud access and it makes since within the context of controlling winds to divert projectiles)?
    - Tortun Portalmage: Also a really strong support but at least it's race-locked for the most part. No suggestions at this time.
    - Tortalleon Transport: I haven't played against it.


    Still evaluating. I have barely played against ST since the patch. I have only played against Legwhip, and that was in the context of ST Beast/Flying wherein the busted component is Tailwind more than anything else.


    Still evaluating. I have barely played against SP since the patch. I still miss old AoChaos with Pull :(


    Still evaluating. I've played against Tainted Vinecreeper and it seems runnable now. Cool (though cheesy :p) synergy with Planar Dissonance. Happy to see Vex is having max range reduced.


    I think all the UD changes have worked out well and the reworked champs match the intended roles. Even the Stoker nerf gave him some interesting CC as a replacement for nora siphon. No complaints.
    Bondman007 likes this.
  13. badgerale

    badgerale Warchief of Wrath

    I'm not 100% sold on the unhinged bok change. It was a glass cannon before, but now it's even more glass and less cannoney.

    I think the 7 speed wasn't really necessary with pseudo-manic and the reduced hit points means it dies really quickly.

    I do need to try it out more to be sure though.
  14. Braxzee

    Braxzee I need me some PIE!

    Why are you nerfing ST so hard? All you are doing is forcing ST players to use only certain runes. Taking away a lot of the creativity. Try making some runes only available for ST faction. The imbalance is in split factions. The nerfs really hurt Yeti's, Ferren, Jakei and beasts. The last AP generation is tailwind which is not very good since you get a max of 2ap for 8AP spent and its for flight only. Horn of order and MOBI are far more efficient and cost less and effect all champs.
    Ferren need more HP and better abilites to slow or majestic enemy champs, and get some hidden arctic. Put ferren focus as a base on all ferren!
    Yeti need more HP in general or reduced nora cost as they are overpriced compared to all other champs across the other factions. A rework on some of their ranged champs to offer some kind of range defense. Or just more HP so they can engage other enemy champs.
    Lonx tamer nerf obliterated beasts and Lonx. Dont even have a fix on this.
    Nerfing Crystal Crawler - needs trail crystal back - its even in the illustration on what this champ is about.
    Jakei needs their iceguard, force barriers and hidden arctic back as well.
    A lonx fix could be they all get +1 def or gain arctic camo while occupying snow or ice. Lonx used to be the slip and slide

    Make ice generator and any champ with orb of frostfall ability only playable in ST full faction. It would solve a lot of imbalance issues

    ST is about being a controlling faction. Reduce damage, slow, freeze, immobilize, nerf /counter spells, crystalize, change terrain and displacement (Gales Swaps)

    Please answer Why are you trashing the whole faction? Is there some grand plan later or just want to get rid of it?
    Bondman007 likes this.
  15. Bushido

    Bushido Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Braxzee post aside, which I don't agree with (although I disliked the frigid nerf),

    @MogaBait I think you should keep an eye on garu. They were buffed quite significantly this patch, with reduction to cost on barrage and pummel. I would have already rated garu whisperer top tier, and with these changes, Garu get out even sooner.
  16. Braxzee

    Braxzee I need me some PIE!

    Which part do you not agree with? Even ST Doomie was just given some rando ability.. Surge Behemoth? Maybe to support cyclops in SP.. That change was done out of spite. Here are options Chill 5, gale, force barrier, crystalize, freezing aura, majestic, extra HP 7, any of these would have been themed for the faction.
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2022
  17. JazzMan1221

    JazzMan1221 Better-Known Member

    It was given Surge: Behemoth to encourage its use in ST Beasts, who tend to run a few 2x2s (Icefang, Frost Wolf, Azaren's pet, etc.). It could also be played in Clops/ST alongside the new Zev support from this patch, or even Flying decks who use Battle Ward, Juya, Wingmasters/Clerics, and others. It may not be the most flavorful ability, but it certainly wasn't done out of spite for ST, so stop spreading these ridiculous lies.
  18. Bushido

    Bushido Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Im not disagreeing that the changes were stupid, as you saw in our matches, the game has become horribly coin flip.

    I didn't mean to dismiss your post entirely, but I'll comment on where I disagree if ur curious

    1) yeti, ferren, and lonx are still some of the best themes in the game (I'd throw in crystals and frost too).

    2) tailwind is good.

    3). Im not really sure what ST is about, because their bonus allows for the best nora:ap ratios per square, but they also have some of the best globals in the game. Ive never felt they really had any counter other than just being able to out efficiency them, which is honesty quite hard to impossible. Imo they shouldnt have such such easy access to globals like wail and cleanse and st avatar and crystal Phoenix, because they already have such strong board precense. There's really no counter play imo.

    That being said, I still understand why you feel creativity is being reduced.

    Without even looking at all the changes, I can tell you that on the FW side, every change has been really heavy handed. Morgana is an abomination of bad game design that either wins the game outright without counterplay or loses it due to 1 spell / equip. Lost queen is so bad compared to Jakei frost queen (btw, why are giving Units sovereign bounty in the first place?), infected zombie was gutted, bone mine is border line unusable (and the passive spurs are some of the coolest parts of skeles imo), ethereal ghost got this weird OP rework that I wouldn't have suggested even if I was trolling, no idea how it got to live...

    I think your post about crystal crawler is spot on . Why is tail crystal being removed? It's one of the more interesting mechanics in all of pox ...

    Comes down to incompetent design imo. The disord community circle jerks each other about how great their stupid ideas are, and we have people like reaper running 2 ol and ash in a split deck with a straight face.

    Also, the changes are straight up biased. It can also be seen in how over powered FS has become, where it was once a weaker faction to some God like faction that can nearly rival KF if the people that played it weren't such victim mentally babies.

    Stitched combo is a perfect summation of everything wrong with current design. It's comically overpowered and comically toxic, and never recieved a nerf because the communists on the discord would have humble themselves, which gets in the way of their daily satan worship.

    To me, since things like VO still haven't been addressed, I can't take any of the changes seriously, and every patch I see is just self affirmation that the forces of satan are corrupting pox nora.
  19. Braxzee

    Braxzee I need me some PIE!

    Im not spreading lies you actually put behemoth upgrade in ST. There is no use for it. Doomie is about supporting FF. If you want to encourage ST beasts then fix lonx tamer. Give more drive or commander options.
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2022
  20. JazzMan1221

    JazzMan1221 Better-Known Member

    The lie is that there actually is a use for it and yet you're making it out like everyone in charge hates ST and gave it Surge out of spite.
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