Upcoming FW faction bonus and boon Change Pre-Discussion

Just stop already.Its crystal clear that you are trying to nerf FW because you either cant or dont like playing against it.
Both the numbers and arguments are against your case.

Boon of undead has been proven by number crunching to actualy never pay off unless its a 2 hour match and even then it will either even itself or pay a tiny amount.Removing boon would actually make fw more efficient and it is why its support by fw players.

The only champion played by fw with dead eater is death harvester,which is actualy run without dead eater(see meta thread)so he can be run as a cheap detection/death harvest champion.He is also inffiecient and there are good arguments for buffing him.If some other amazing dead eater fw champion is doing so well in meta,please let us know,otherwise you confirm what i already said,you are just full of Bane Shift.

Tomb is not as broken as you make it to be,it is very strong,but very often the temp hit and the slow pace of the faction in this rushy meta will negate advatange of it.

Also i like how you forgot to mention Keeper of Memories,who is played in St meta because of his overpowered ability to generate massive amount of nora.

 

In no particular order -

Quite right that neither does every faction have nora gen, nor does every faction need nora gen. Generation, however, is the cleanest, quickest, and easiest way to elaborate on a faction bonus for which people are pushing a change, and to elaborate in a way that stays consistent with FW's thematic ends through understandable mechanical means.

We do not agree Tomb is over powered. I stayed the rune is power, maybe the best in the game. That does not mean it is overpowered; that assertion would require a narrow view of rune power and game balance that sees runes on a direct continue, where the top ones must be invariably trimmed.

Citing top players in Pox doesn't mean jack. Tiny is the only top player in my book, and even then I wouldn't take his word on any balance changes within the last year. I would love to hear which top players are still running Dead Eater, but more importantly, why they are running a competitive form of Dead Eater. There aren't even that many. Ethical arguments of authority carry far too much weight in Pox, and unless backed up with other information, should carry no weight at all - they don't with me.

The example was relevant to demonstration generation in an instance of proportional loss. The particulars of a game, especially anecdotal particulars about one person's set of games, in no way influence those numbers. If you want me to run more models, I certainly will. Just toss out some numbers.

That Boon's nora component may at times generate a non-zero amount of nora for a FW player does little to justify its existence or its value. Every point counts; not every point matters.

Stating that your point stands is insufficient. At this time, I see no material to the contrary for FW having a bonus tied to direct nora returns. I'd appreciate some elaboration.

 

Im sorry bud, I do not possess the writing skills you do, nor do I have time to elaborate such a thought out response like you did, at least not at the moment.
Either way, I will quote you and say that I see no material that would support FW having a bonus tied to direct nora returns, if you consider all those nora gen mechanics we pointed out. Not to mention, its stepping on the SP bonus.
I agree that tieing the bonus to nora is the quickest and easiest way, but not the best one, specially considering that FW already has the best font bonus and giving such a boost to the bonus would make the faction unbalanced if compared to the others. I respect your opinion, I just dont agree with it.
Good talk, though.

 

Fair enough. I do agree it intrudes onto the SP bonus, which is one reason I have no problems with leaving the bonus as is. I don't see a need to change the bonus right now; neither do I see a need for it to avoid nora generation. I think nora generation would be a "clean" solution, to reference my earlier comment: simple and consistent with the FW aesthetic. Maybe it would over power FW. I doubt that right now, but it would be a consideration. Thanks for staying civil, and yeah, good talk.

 

Why does FW have the best font bonus? Humor me.

Also some good discussion.

Will add some more later tonight.

 

Only real competition would be IS. IS may very well be better but DMZ is still pretty danged strong.

 

The new IS bonus has one enormous benefit: summons and illusions cannot in any way contest a font.

 

1. Dead eater, tomb, vendetta, short lived and boon suggest that Nora gen is something fw does, especially as connected to...well...harvesting death? Soul collection type effects, we had the most and I believe we had them first (the lich/witch back when he was 8 spd? I'm not sure here.)
2. This does not imply it ought to be that way, there is no special universal definition of what faction is/does
3. precedent counts for a lot, both in simplicity and in appeal to current player base (way more likely to turn people off by major reorganization).
4. Having watched many fw matches of late, I have observed exactly None where the opponent has been ground to 0 champs, and bird is a smattering, playable but nothing like dusk creeper was. This isn't to say it doesn't happen in your games, only that that isn't a universal impression. Ymmv
5. Kalasle's argument is that boon is merely a nominal nora gen and only under best conditions...he certainly no-where said tomb is op. Merely that it is powerful.

Anyways, as I said before, we all have biases and this is a conversation best served by integrity in intentions. Many people find playing against control style strategies that restrict you from what you want to do then develop incremental advantage to slowly overwhelm you "unfun". Tomb and nora gen are certainly strong elements that enable the style. You aren't alone in disliking a style and you wouldn't be the first to advocate for nerfs based on what you prefer, what you find fun, if that is what you ARE doing. And, if you are, I'd suggest you just come out with it..

 

Oh absolutely. Thus why I included it. IS and FW font bonuses have very tangeble impacts upon the game. Font bonuses like STs do not.

 

But Why is it Strong specifically?

Back in the day when you could contest from spell presence I would classify the question as pretty self evident.
Nowadays with spells like ice block/Call Serpent/Dark Rising all calling forth summons has made contesting from spell presence virtually non existent.

I say virtually because you can technically still do it with methods like the UD spell that summons a spider and then placing a relic or using the (again) UD spell that summons real lava traps. Both of which are incidentally not effected by standard DMZ.

With how it is now it only prevents same turn contesting and CC super aggressively.
At best it also hampers optimal placement of an AOE. Otherwise it is a 1 turn delay for spells that target fonts (fiery ambush).

To counter that I would note that there has been more Hidden DMZ and domain DMZ added to the faction which is good synergy.

 

Agreed. The KF and SP font bonuses are both solid, UD may be one of the tops for the de-stealth, but stuff like FS and SL don't stack up at all.

 

Ok bud, lol. How is that NOT strong, again?
Humor me.
I wont even reply to this jsat guy because he is making too much assumptions and Ive made my points.

 

@Pedeguerra I think it is definitely useful but I'm hesitant to say it's the best as it was much much stronger when it directly effected contesting capabilities.

To humor you I'll say that it doesn't result in as noticeable an effect when contesting against other factions.

IS currently as stated by Markoth.
SP giving stat and spell support beyond the initial contest.
UD via dmg and anti stealth.

I would definitely rank the FW font bonus at the top when you were able to effectively contest via spell presence but now that you are not I'd say it is in the middle if not high middle.

That's just my two cents though. As stated this could very well change if more DMZ reliant abilities are consistently added to the faction through synergy (although that can be said via water/grass/sand/etc…).

 

Yeah SL and FS are pretty blah and I also hate how similar they are.

 

Well then, glad we are 100% clear you have no interest in discussion. good day sir

 

If you are biased against FW try to be intelligent and constructive about it.Or at least honest about it.
The whole,i know its op because i feel it in my heart and know it but i don't have any solid arguments approach is on the level of people like vorian and polltroy and i think no one likes such nonsense.

 

Could we stay away from % bonus? I think is not newbie friendly to force them to calculate each individual event even if is something as trivial as the 10% of something. See the SL bonus for a reference. A flat bonus (you gain 7n/3n per death) is pretty much the same, but more easy to understand.

Also, I think the CDR equal to the nora gain is a bit too much. If the average champion cost is 72n, for each death the CDR is 7, so after 2 mere deaths, the average FW champion had its CD set to 0.

 

The point about CDR is a good one. That would be some powerful reduction. Maybe 4/2 on death, and 50% of that as CDR?

 

I'd actually assume that the cooldown reduction would be in total.

So for instance your cool downs would be reduced by 7 spread across the current tunes on cooldown. If you only have 1 on cooldown and the champion that dies is not yours then it would be -7.

Otherwise it usually will be 3/4

 

These resource-split mechanics would have to be clearly outlined. Would it always round up? What would the order of priority for spare points be if it didn't?