Review of the Changes to Poxnora's Themes Since Ronin

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by mw24, Jul 25, 2015.

  1. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    I think you are right about this but I think much more needs to be done to make the theme complete aned competitive. I also don't have much experience or knowledge with this theme. I have played a full ferren bg maybe once, and a little of full nohkando and monks.
     
  2. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    There is no Centaur theme. There is a bunch of champs with Race: Centaur, but there has never been any effort on the development side to create a theme.
     
  3. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    You might be right about this. At the least it should be in the mixed category. I originally put it in bad because I felt they didn't get enough to make them sufficiently strong and that dreamcrusher was overnerfed.
     
  4. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    It's being worked on, but I honestly don't think it's really a thing yet.
     
  5. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    the rune recostings made many low def and low hp units(such as firk) alot more expensive. Before the backlash change you could run soultap and backlash for the soultap backlash damage it was dealing to champs and you could use marsh song as well. It made the theme pretty good. They lost access to that and are now much weaker and no longer competitive.
     
  6. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I honestly don't consider Jakei a theme. They the primary race of ST and support many themes. If they are runnable as a group, fine, but I don't think there really is much of a reason to run Jakei as a group aside from "I like blue elves." Granted, the Core does trigger on Jakei so I will give you that.
     
  7. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    Which buffs? The main issue I have with treefolk is that their ranged units and who would be delivering their damage aren't in a great state. Dryad has a bad range(2-4) and gnarlwood launcher has lumbering. Lumbering on other units also hurts them alot.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2015
  8. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    A cursory glance shows me that Firk, as a whole, didn't really get hit any harder than the average group of runes. They have some that went up a few nora, some that went down (such as Behemoth) and others that didn't change. Since all of Pox went through those changes, unless you are talking about a theme like Moga which is predominantly one rune-type, I don't think you can make this claim.

    Before the Backlash change, Soultap/Backlash wasn't really a thing for Firk. I made that into a thing recently around the same time as the Backlash change. I created Soulwrack and Psychic Anguish specifically for the Firk and moved a bunch of Soultap stuff into them specifically to build that into their character.

    Look at who had Backlash before the revamp:

    upload_2015-7-27_3-54-53.png
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2015
  9. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    They have as much synergy now as many other themes do, the problem with them is that their range is very expensive, their regal is on a squishy ranged unit, and that some of their synegy like elemental nexus are weak.
    Jakei currently have access to boost from nohkan guides summons, regal presence from frost queen, a racial ability from elemental nexus, menace ability from elemental core, defender from jakei maiden/borderguard elite, borderguard elite/juya synergy, snowcharger cavalry reinforce, jakei snowcharger protective,(even though the unit sucks) elven ancestor guiding spirit, bravery from borderguard elite/frostwing glaive, sacred tundra amulet, jakei globe, and the ailur concord.
     
  10. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I don't disagree there have been, over time, things added such that Jakei can be run together in some fashion, but there's no underlying "core" that makes Jakei unique in any way as a theme - it's just a bunch of blue elves who fulfill many roles with many different kinds of abilities.

    The reason Minotaurs is a supported theme is because there is a coherent narrative there about what Minotaurs do and how they are expected to play.
     
  11. LoganMkv

    LoganMkv I need me some PIE!

    My point was that we have certain things, which all benefit a single playstyle, and make everything that doesn't fit that playstyle look bad, despite most such not fitting themes are way better balanced and designed. So we shouldn't try to buff and break those, but rather nerf stupid ones.

    As for stitched:

    post-revamp they have much stronger recons and stitchlings, and lowrisk-lowreward fragile "higher" stitched,
    while before those were highrisk-highreward with some survivability.

    That makes stupid classic UD/FW attrition "let's just throw stuff at them till they fail to clear enough remains, and then arise" prevalent, while prerevamp all kinds of stitched modules without much attrition and recon focus were great. Currently we have only FS/psychostitched better than before, SL/ and ST/ powerstitched slightly worse yet still playable, couple new decks with absolutely minimal stitched presence, and everything else is gone.
     
  12. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    draksar psion
    firk paraform
    firk mindcaller
    almsgiver
    firk psy sentry
    firk sensorate
    firk behemoth
    firk mastermind
    firk savant
    firk executor
    sixul world ender
    firk soulthief
    firk mindshredder
    firk voidmage
    firk botanist

    These are pretty much the options for a competitive firk bg maybe excluding a couple runes like sixul, savant, and mastermind. Nearly every rune went up in nora cost and many seem to have went up around 5 nora because of their low hp and 0 def. The only rune that didn't increase out of this list is bememoth. I am not sure if soultap+backlash is still doing damage, if not behemoth is significantly weaker, and physical resistance cost went up as well which didn't help this particular rune.(even though it was a good change overall) firk botanist was changed nicely but I don't get the vulnerable magic and he still suffers from the increased in cost of 0 def low hp units.
     
  13. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    This is the current map rotation:

    Axillium
    Brood Pits
    Elemental Plateau
    Forsaken Wastes
    Ironfist Pass
    K'thir Forest
    Lava Plains
    Lost City
    Ruins of Valdac
    Shores of Maljaran
    Sundered Lands
    Tundra Lake

    Do you really see most of these as "two-font" or "still single front?" And what maps not in the current rotation do you feel would have helped this rotation feel less "stupid?"

    Personally, I see a diversity of maps there, but perhaps you have a specific perspective I am not seeing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2015
  14. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    On that entire list, the ONLY one that went up 5 nora is Mind Shredder. Everything else was 2-4. This is consistent with most themes.
     
  15. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I am somewhat confused here. Wouldn't "fragile higher stitched" make them high risk?

    So to clarify, you would prefer to see that the Reconstructors be more survivable , but rely on maintaining Reconstructed to maintain pressure (with Reconstructed being more fragile and dispensable).

    I feel like the Reconstructs themselves aren't stronger, but just that in general, higher cost units are weaker (because of stricter costing), thus it makes stuff like Stitched Blackguard (which is actually weaker than pre-revamp) stronger relatively speaking.

    You don't feel that Reconstructing is a form of "throw stuff at them" attrition? And can you describe some of these "Stitched modules?"
     
  16. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    Many themes just switched to their tankier units on their melees for competitive. Firk don't have that option and weren't that good before they increased in cost unlike some themes that were too strong.
     
  17. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    I think this theme should be developed. Many of the centaur that do exist are really cool(bliss, sargnhavian centaur, centaur regulator, centaur savage) and I think players would love to see more of them. It would be pretty amazing to watch a game with centaur theme fighting against minotaur. I think a centaur theme could potentially be extremely fun to play as well and very popular.
     
  18. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Like which ones? The only theme that mentions recostings positively is Dragons.
     
  19. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Why? What makes Centaurs interesting as a theme? What are the things that make Centaurs unique and what mechanics can be introduced to Centaurs that makes it worthwhile to add more Centaurs and develop them separate as a theme (which would take time away from other themes)?
     
  20. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    They could gain access to horn of kthir and more heavy charger for power turns with charge and or rally the herd. They could be focused around high speed units, many with charge and high mobility as well as powerful ranged units like centaur archer and centaur savage could become. There is alot of potential with centaur for lore, art, gameplay and this would allow some really cool runes to be designed, not only champion runes but non champion as well. They already have a hero too.
     

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