A major flaw in the businessmodel

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by BurnPyro, Jul 19, 2015.

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  1. Poxpoints

    Poxpoints I need me some PIE!

    @Sokolov
    I want to add two, in my opinion, noteworthy points while comparing to League of Legends and World of Tanks:

    League of Legends and World of Tanks cosmetics are (in general):
    - Available for a long time.
    - Not tradeable.
    - Not seen as a part to complete a collection.

    If you sell one new LE version of a core set rune (and I mean a NICE reskin, more than just some color changes) every week (and it would only be available that week) you can expect a way higher % of people to buy it (compared to cosmetics of other games) because in PoxNora:
    - Collectors want it.
    - Traders want it.
    - People that like cosmetics want it (the minority).

    So you don't only cater to the small part of the playerbase that dig cosmetics, you cater to the much bigger part of the playerbase that speculate on perceived rune value or to those that feel like they would die if they did not have that rune in their collection.


    Cheers,

    Josh753
     
    Poxpoints, Jul 20, 2015
    #41
  2. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I actually have the Cosmetic Re-skins being $250 instead of $500 in my example, at 2 things to sell.

    It's somewhat higher cost than your's, but it isn't a huge deal in terms of illustrating the point.

    That said, the reason I'd price it higher is that I feel that if we are going to do actual re-skins for $$$, they need to be higher quality and have more to them than the skins we currently have. More unique art/sprite/animations/flair, etc.

    This doesn't seem reasonable, if you could do more with the same amount of money, of course you'd do more, but it's going to cost you more no matter when you do it. I don't see how making it part of the expansion matters at all except from a process perspective, and remember that part of the initial suggestion made by the player also moves away from the TCG model for the expansions themselves.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2015
    Sokolov, Jul 20, 2015
    #42
  3. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    It's probably low, in reality.
     
    Sokolov, Jul 20, 2015
    #43
  4. IMAGIRL

    IMAGIRL Forum Royalty

    Would Faction specific packs, or even wrath/protectorate packs have a harmful impact on the revenue with players needed to trade less, and buy less to trade with to get what they want? Is there a way to implement this in such a faction that it would actually keep or exceed the current income?
     
    IMAGIRL, Jul 20, 2015
    #44
  5. BurnPyro

    BurnPyro Forum Royalty

    By paying artists and programmers/designers less? That should go well.
     
    BurnPyro, Jul 20, 2015
    #45
  6. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    These types of statements are extremely frustrating for a number of reasons...

    "Nothing happened": Players often say stuff like this while basically ignoring everything that has actually happened. In this case, 5 years ago, SOE/Poxnora had just spent a year not releasing new content and instead worked on a massive game update that included both streamlining the game and UI updates, as well as a Facebook launch. One may or may not agree with exactly what was done or how it was done, but if this counts as "nothing happened" then I don't know what counts as something.

    When Pox first launched, F2P didn't really exist - this was the era of retail box sales and subscription based models. In fact, the model was an early form of F2P, where players got basic starter decks/runes and could play indefinitely without purchase (but had no way to earn content as current F2P models do).

    This was the environment in which Pox grew and was successful enough to be purchased by a large company. That, alone, is a great success story for any indie company from the financial perspective.

    Since then, Pox has progressively moved towards a model more closely resembling current F2P models, the introduce of Gold currency allowing you to earn runes, the Forge which allows you to convert runes to other runes, etc. all point to this direction. By definition, Pox is a Free-To-Play game. And I would note each of these things (Facebook, Gold, Forge, easier access to runes) has not come with the expected player retention impacts "everyone" would have predicted.

    In this very thread I have explained why the particular brand of F2P + Cosmetics only may or may not work for Pox, given where it sits in terms of genre, age and demographic reach.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2015
    Sokolov, Jul 20, 2015
    #46
  7. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Actually, it's already much lower than it used to be and probably as low as it can go without us hiring very cheap artists.

    Pox have invested in various tools that has decreased costs of producing content over the years, including a proprietary scripting language that makes it so even non-programmers can implement basic abilities.

    Check out @DaisyDukeNukem's post for a decent cost breakdown of what that $500 pays for.
     
    Sokolov, Jul 20, 2015
    #47
  8. DaisyDukeNukem

    DaisyDukeNukem I need me some PIE!

    However, your example still overly generalized the truth. You can eliminate the expense with proper planning and knowing where the expensive part of the cost comes in so it can be mitigated. It might always be a fixed cost for doing the new sprite, regardless of color/skin changes. But you can eliminate the programming cost if you don't change their abilities or tweak the abilities with existing ones. You can eliminate the art cost by using the same art but changing it's status (from exo to legendary) etc. So stating that a rune costs only 250 to make as a generalization just feels wrong; since it could be more or less depending on where you choose to spend your money.

    The whole point of understanding your ROI model is to ensure that if you spend the money up front you can make the money back. The addage you have to spend money to make money seems reasonable to me. How you make it back and whether you are able to is a whole completely different conversation.

    I don't have an opinion on the original suggestion. I think the game will move in the direction that you guys find will continue to make you money. If that is TCG, that is fine, if not; it won't be. But you put in a lot of effort to explain why recolor/reskins would be cost ineffective and I was responding to that.
     
    DaisyDukeNukem, Jul 20, 2015
    #48
  9. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Certainly there are various ways of doing things. Doing recolors is cheaper than getting new art, etc. But I don't think it's unreasonable to spend $250 on a full re-skin of a champion. In fact, unique art + recolor of the sprite would cost more than that based on your breakdowns even without any additional costs.

    Sure, we could just SAY something was a re-skin and just change the Rarity, but I was evaluating the suggestions based on a realistic interpretation of the idea. In this case, a skin that someone would purchase for $10. Changing the assumed quality would impact the value that it would impart (i.e. if all we did was change the rarity bar, would you expect conversion and ARPU to stay the same?). So you can't just say "we could reduce the cost a lot" without also taking the next step of calculating the impact that might have on the revenue side of things.

    ~

    In any case, what I said was an illustration, not a cost estimate. The point is that the most significant part of what makes a feature of this sort of viable is the size of the playerbase along with the expected conversion rates and spend - this makes it more difficult to be cost effective with cosmetic features that have a low conversion rate relative to TCG-based blind repeat content. And this is why small market games tend not to be F2P largely with cosmetics, because the scaling just isn't there. That's all.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2015
    Sokolov, Jul 20, 2015
    #49
  10. Dwlr

    Dwlr I need me some PIE!

    I don't think cheap has to mean bad does it? Surely there are fans out there that would be willing to work for a nominal fee if not just a free version of the card they design.

    Couldn't you open up an art submission thread posting that it needs to be original work etc etc etc whatever you need it to be to be able to use it and then use the pieces that get posted that you like? Like an art version of the Rune Suggestion topic? Amateur art would surely be cheaper and could bulk up the runes and by only using what you want to use you wouldn't have to use art that doesn't meet your standards.

    Same with recolors, I don't think you need to have something professionally recolored unless there is a legal issue to editing the original piece and then using it.
     
    Dwlr, Jul 20, 2015
    #50
  11. hfok

    hfok I need me some PIE!

    Those art actually brought most of the people I introduce the game to into the game.
     
    hfok, Jul 20, 2015
    #51
    yobanchi likes this.
  12. Ragic

    Ragic I need me some PIE!

    because they weren't implemented in an effective way? saying pox is f2p is like saying the 100k runes were 'free'. you cant think of f2p as some sort of concession you are giving the players. think of it rather as free advertising. it also 'fills seats', keeps players around long enough to WANT to buy something. the purpose of f2p is to get people playing the game (and that means pvp) your solo content just isn't that good. so the time it takes to create a playable/decent/complete PvP deck cant take months. right now its months. a pro gold grinder/trader can do it in less time, but a casual player wont. and the casual player is who the f2p system should be aimed at.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2015
    Ragic, Jul 20, 2015
    #52
  13. BigToastie

    BigToastie The King of Potatoes

    I know you can't rely on cosmetics to be the sole generator of cash as pointed out, its just not pox's plausible business model.

    However, I am curious to if the duo skin release on mid terms actually helped with revenue from this midterm? (I dont need numbers obviously just wanting to know if the LE versions created a notable difference in sales?)
     
    BigToastie, Jul 21, 2015
    #53
  14. Leogratz

    Leogratz Devotee of the Blood Owl

    If an contracted artist is paid 45 USD an hour and takes 4 hours to re skin a rune just changing the whole color scheme, then we are already speaking of 180 USD just from the artist... I think 250 is really not unreasonable at all.
     
    Leogratz, Jul 23, 2015
    #54
  15. IMAGIRL

    IMAGIRL Forum Royalty

    @Sokolov
     
    IMAGIRL, Jul 23, 2015
    #55
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