So Ghern Juggler

Ok I'll give you sapper.

K, my bad.

 

Burn them all to the ground!

 

The BZ thing goes a bit deeper. It goes around FW bonus as well as the worm racial. I did fight against a guy who not only said he could do it forever, and did deploy a BZ every round when I was trying to take his shrine, along with afflicted corpses(and no tomb).

 

Necrosis has been whack since the most recent change. That's been clear for months. Also:

That's the real gist of my post. Maybe there's a balance problem, but in regards to Sok's question, I think that problem depends on the numbers rather than the central design.

 

Right after we get rid of ST











Swap still needs to die

 

Not trying to be a **** here, but you tell me. Look at bile zombie and how its played and tell me why its a problem. I am honestly interested to see what you have to say about it.

 

You'd have to talk to the people who really hate the rune and play against it more. On the using side of things -- Necrosis. I don't know if that's what makes him broke, but it's about half the reason I run him. The current map pool certainly helps.

 

You, sir, have just broke my heart.
Shame.

 

When I use Bile Zombie, I don't count it toward my total number of champions, since I use it as a spell.

I run Bile Zombie at 45 nora, with Reinforcement 2 and Death Nova: Disease. That's a total of 26 damage, Scoured 2, and Blinded 2 that it inflicts on death. Compared to Acid Storm in SL, it has the same Nora cost, does 16 more damage, and also causes Blinded 2. Because of the FW bonus, it comes back in 3 turns instead of 9.

The question in my mind is if the added difficulty positioning is worth 16 damage, blinded 2, and 6 turns less on cooldown. I would say it easily surpasses Acid Storm in that regard. Even more so since Necrosis can often mitigate the positioning issues to allow me to drag and drop.

Keep in mind, my experience isn't in high level ranked play, so there may be counters that others have come up with that reduce the effectiveness.

 

>.>

 

i don't get why not just remove the ability completely rather than going around nerfing stuff that causes trick decks because of that one stupid ability?

 

This is a fair representation of our meta, just lacks moga:

 

just a thought but. change the sappers death nova to be fire instead of physical? since thats really the main interaction thats even causing problems with g'hern juggler i dont think this is a bad change.

 

I love spell like champions because they provide an new interesting form of champions and gameplay situation.
Bile zombie is only broken when used with extended deployment zone of necrosis,otherwise bile zombie is shoeboxed,he was and is shoeboxed until everyone discovered necrosis and worms.

 

If Bile Zombie had Disease Volatility or something similar I would be more concerned. Under ideal circumstances Bile Zombie has a threat range of 8 spaces. Thats if he gets full AP from initiative and is deployed the same turn that the player also uses Mobilize. This is because he has to save AP for Self-Destruct.

Sapper under ideal circumstances has a threat range of 12. Because he can be deployed, get thrown 5 spaces and then run the 7 AP he got from deployment. Then using volatility, firebombs and artillery the SP player just kills his own unit. No need for Self-Destruct. Volatility added on top makes for 40-50 aoe damage which is almost twice that of Bile Zombie.

 

To be fair you're including a lot of other runes supporting the moga sapper, but not including the runes that could be supporting bile zombie such as necrosis or fleshweaver witch. Of those two necrosis is the more relevant, and granted, necrosis shrine extension is a lot more situational. To be honest I think both runes are bonkers.

The reason I don't like these "champ based spells" is that they're either useless or way too efficient. I don't mind that in runes where the level of success it has depends on the play of your opponent (ember wasp, fire phoenix, imp familiar, royal geo to some extent). The problem I have is when the efficiency comes straight from the runedock without allowing counterplay. Pox doesn't exactly allow for "never getting close to a font or shrine deployment zone" in most games, so the level of forced positioning these runes exert is kinda wacky for their low nora cost.

 

Personally my issue with 'spell champs' such as Bile Zombie and Sapper, isn't the damage they output nor their cost really, it's the ease that you can pull the combo(s) off with very little issue with the combo being stopped.

Possibly give self destruct a cool down of 1 and make the ability itself start on cool down of 1 - and remove self destruct from grant death nova abilities.

The reasoning, the AP gen on deploy is key as they are a time bomb, you want them in a fight, but maps aren't generally that big, so you can drop them, run them into enemies and pop it in 1 turn.
Having a CD on self destruct means that you can still charge it into a group, and the enemy will need to adapt to the sudden change of situation, but it doesn't mean hell will break loose in a single turn.

I mean the above may be a too drastic, I am unsure as I haven't ever played these champions, only spectated games and fought against them, so I don't know if this would shoebox them (and it's not what I'd want to see happen).

 

You're right but my reasoning is that Juggler and Thrower are runes that perform regardless of Sappers inclusion. They are good in their own right and would see play even if Sapper had never existed. The deck does not suffer from their inclusion.

Dont get me wrong. Bile Zombie has the potential to be problematic as we saw when Necrosis was wisely used. In the current meta it is largely held in check. Even then its issue is largely rooted in its ability to be spammed rather than its damage or its ability to seeming drop from the sky. If FW is ever to get a new Faction bonus I think the Bile Zombie will remain in an ok state.