What non-Worms runes are "necessary" and why? And how does reducing the SDZ mean you can't use them at all? Seems like many people think Worms are OP and crazy, why do you think they aren't competitive? Most racials benefit the theme specifically (and not those outside) - Necrosis was actually one that benefited ALL champions regardless whether they are in-theme. So in reality, this clause brings it more in-line with most themes. For example, the Salaman racials do not buff non-Salamans.
could have removed or reworked necrohex then. seems to me all necrohex has done is created problems for worms. ever since it got changed to granting necrosis.
Feel free to disagree, just my perspective. There's also more than one way to skin a cat. I'll admit it's not necessarily a worms-specific problem in full, as there are quite a few racial themes that simply lack a critical mass of meta-worthy abilities, but worms are held together by their racial & how it interacts across the board. They don't really feel like they're competitive by themselves given many missing components. They don't have any (or many) mana gen, ap gen, many synergy abilities, mobility synergy, or abilities that directly or indirectly boost/reduce dmg. They have a couple, but not a critical mass. Now this isn't unique to worms (there are plenty of themes with this problem), but the difference is that you can usually supplement this by mixing other champions without it becoming just a full goodstuff or meta. The worms theme just isn't powerful, it relies on the crutching of FW's cool-down along with the SDZ expansion. It has difficulty maintaining board presence and in general playing the same game as most other decks, it's not unusual to end up down a font (or sometimes more), because you've invested in growing your SDZ for a later benefit - at the expense of more traditional game metrics. The SDZ investment over the game essentially turns a few runes, like hard-to-position short-lived units and BZ/HS, into themed units. Examples are Chattering, Bile, Martyr, and Haunting Sprit. It's the intersection of the FW bonus and the SDZ expansion that translates that SDZ investment into those type of units being a necessary part of the theme - or at least an important one - they essentially allow you to extract the SDZ investment and translate it game benefit. I mean, BZ in a worms BG is essentially a standard AE DD spell (albeit with an extra restriction or two), where the SDZ&FW bonus interact to give it a 2 turn CD. Haunting spirit is more about some movement restriction & contesting, and Martyr/Chattering provide a necessary meat wall that the theme has trouble with otherwise. Many themes handle this differently - skeletons and zombies/other swarms just get hp on the board in various ways, meta/goodstuff typically is just the best units, IS/FS/KF have healing (plus other spells), SL has regen/dmg reduction, etc. Not a precise comparison, but a BG needs available meat or it needs units that dont die easily. That's how worms does it while being a competitive theme. Watch some worm games. You'll see that most worm players steadily invest in their SDZ growth, and in the meantime, they're essentially playing a delay tactic until it spreads far enough. At the same time, they can't totally lose board control - a real problem (it even has a nickname amongst worms players - stagflation) or else the game devolves into a loss - generally speaking, if you're spamming BZ's, you've probably already lost. You still have to have a late game even with your SDZ covering the board - if you spread your units to do what players fear - contest their already-won fonts - you're going to lose to their likely built-up main army just killing your units as you spawn them or killing your shrine. The way I look at SDZ spread is more akin to how I look at Zerg creep in Starcraft - it's not game winning in itself, but it allows synergy with other units & interactions. It provides an undoubtedly useful passive benefit, and helps turn what may be otherwise low competition units/spells/abilities and makes them competitive. As far as the racial negative - you're right, worms can be used by any unit. At the same time, playing a Firk with a must-have special ability or a Boghopper for a much-needed tank/font contester doesn't result in your Salaman's getting a penalty. You're also still within the worm framework - in order to use that racial, you have to invest in it, and if you're not investing in it, you'd better be receiving a necessary benefit if it's not late-game. The penalty for playing non-worms is already built-in - you're not growing your SDZ, there's no real reason to add another penalty. As far as the hate, it plays different than most other themes. That generates a simple amount of hate, combined with the FW hate from the fact that people generally hate attrition - they want to get their power turns and get the game over with. Worms engineer special hate because the SDZ growth makes players fearful of losing fonts they think are secure - it attacks one of the most fundamental human needs - a need for security of our most necessary resources. There may be a balance argument in here somewhere, but I'm not sure it's reflected in-game anymore than many others. Granted it's a low number of players, but I just have to wonder about a thread that includes alot of - it's OP but nobody plays it. Or when it's a theme that people just don't always play great against. I mean, it has some serious weaknesses even when the SDZ is board-wide - I just watched an 1800-Battlemaster worms player drop a game against an Exotic skeletons. It happens, but the exotic player kept excellent font contesters at the two fonts, protected their shrine late-game, while killing the worm shrine late-game. The worms player was stuck in stagflation thanks to the skellie player just taking those meh worm units off the board regularly & the worms player was reduced to BZ spam, which ultimately failed because the skellie player had built up a suitable advantage & positioned well to avoid it.
I don't disagree with most of what you said. That's how the theme is designed and what I've been explaining in this thread myself. But I don't think you've answered my questions: What non-Worms runes are "necessary" and why? And how does reducing the SDZ when they are deployed mean you can't use them at all?
Yes it does. It means that when the Salaman racial triggers, the Boghopper or Firk doesn't get the benefit. The lack of a benefit is a penalty. In the Necrosis case, right now, Necrosis simply works the same for both Worms and non-Worms with the same effectiveness. Introducing a SDZ reduction for non-Worms mirrors the penalty in other racials. Alternatively, let's say we make the expanded SDZ only work for deploying Worms, is that what you would prefer? (Note: I wouldn't do that for many reasons, but hypothetically this brings it to the same structure as other racials, where the benefit primarily ONLY benefits the theme.)
Anyway, personally, I'd rather if Worms moved away from BZ spam and developed in a more interesting way. So let me know if you have specific ideas on what they need.
I discussed BZ, Martyr, HS, and Chattering in the original post - that's three. Like any other theme it can benefit from other goodstuff, the best example is probably Bone Circle Archmage right now. The why is mostly in there also, but to boil it down, it's that worms are weak in power-turns or counters to them - wether its spells or abilities, and BZ provides the extra efficiency necessary to do powerturns when those are lacking/weak otherwise. The others mainly center around countering that in the form of on-demand meat, mostly blockers, but also some font contesting. Worms are detrimental outside of the SDZ, so you can use the haunting to contest outside. Worms are weak in power units, meat-on-board, synergies, and meta-abilities (sorry, there's no corgis, ranger elites, elven bards, etc sort of synergy at all) - you can generally counter this problem by on-demand meat. Skeletons do this, between cheap meat, spells/abilities that put meat on the board, and on-demand meat in specific locations. Zombies do this also in FW, and in other BG's, they use summons & swarms. Worms (and they're not alone), essentially lack a good chunk of this capability without this sort of stuff. These sort of units use are basically worm players finding synergies that allow worms as a theme to increase its competitiveness. As far as the SDZ. It's not more reducing means you can't use them at all. It's more that growing the SDZ is so important to worms being able to eventually be competitive on a board, that any reduction is a big blow. Facing a reduction of two for each non-worms champ just seems like a body blow to the themes competitiveness because it relies on some non-worms to boost it competitively. The lack of a benefit is a penalty - you are right. I think you're missing that it already has a penalty though. The original penalty is that you're not growing your SDZ by deploying another unit. This, as I said above, is a pretty big penalty already in worm competitiveness. On top of that penalty, you're talking about shrinking it by 2 per deploy, it's a double penalty, one that can only be rectified by playing 2 more units from a limited selection (worms only) with an 8 nora penalty on them (necrosis x2 cost), or somehow using a special ability to grow it otherwise (limited selection & conditions). The SDZ working for only worms is interesting, but doesn't address that worms have to boost their competitiveness by seeking units outside of theme, and that those units increase the themes competitiveness because of their interaction with the SDZ&FW benefit. I think you'd need to rework a few worms in order to fill the resulting gap.
I think perhaps you could add it so only units with necrosis can be deployed inn the expanded sdz. Seems the most simple solution if people are that insistent it's a problem. Outside of that a unit with portal and a bunch of support/ relocation abilities could be interesting. Ill use phantasmal as an example since it already has portal. No attack Portal Ethereal U1 swap Pull Nexus aura U2 Hex Blind Can't think of anther ability that would fit similar roles to those 2 but you get my point. There is already runes out there which can use the expanded zone in interesting ways we just need more
It's technically very challenging to pull off, since that's not how Deployment Zones work by default. At the same time, I think that's a much harsher "penalty" than just having the SDZ reduce if you deploy something non-Worm, honestly.
I really don't like playing against abilities which can take a hard counter advantage over me, such as a firk mask, 25 nora equipment destroys, global relic kills, and things like battle leader and worm lord proccing off of small summon units. I also don't like swarm proccing off of summons.
Tbh, worms shouldn't function with the rest of FW. They don't share the ud race for the most part for a reason. They need to be their own thing, since they act in a very unique manner.
Worms are my favorite theme and i played them since they first became viable two years ago. The theme is and was always hated because of its unusual way of working. The nerf to necrosis to shrink with non-worms is fine and will help shape the theme. It will reduce usage of non-worms to minimum, as using non-worms becomes only viable in late game when there is too much zone. Chattering maw should also be nerfed but not to point of unplayability. Since the nerf affects non-worms i will ask to consider adding race:worm back to Polluted martyr. It was removed because he already had race dragon and undead and races were being streamlined. Carrion collosus,much like Polluted marty is not an worm but is rather infested with worms, presented by ability propagate: carrionling,which they both have. If Polluted martyr cannot gain race:worm back it could also be changed that propagate: carrionling gives race:worm as part of ability. Since worms will become an theme with little non-worm champions,there should be some changes to reflecting creeper and twilight creeper,which lack an specific role and dont provide much to worms.
The issue with Reflecting Creeper is that it relies on healing and staying alive rather then being expendable. Mirrored is fine,but would be better as an expendable mirrored tanky champion,such as stitched mirrorskin. Illuminate would also be an possible ability,as it would allow worms to counter high def. Not sure in what direction to go with Twilight Creeper,since he is tanky but not really, has life siphon but poor damage and can apply several debuffs. Maybe remove slowing armor,add binding chains or tremor to base,remove life siphon upgrades and give him new upgrade options.
Necrosis - Was thinking, maybe the solution is to give players a bit more control. What if the SDZ shrunk by 2 on the death of a non-worm? Automatic reduction by 2 on deploy is especially hurtful in early stages of game when worms are weakest, this would shift it a bit latter perhaps (sooner if you're more aggressive), and specifically tend to hurt BZ spam. Non-worm as the trigger would also allow for splits with the other worms (you'd still not have necrosis on them, but at least you'd not nuke your SDZ). I'd echo worm back on polluted martyr. Chattering maw - probably is a bit undercosted, maybe +5. Carrionling - These guys needs a rework, 5hp for 42 mana - ewww? First, I think the easiest change has to be making his rune version more playable. IMO you can do this through a huge cost reduction & lesser hp boost, or adding some upgrades & greater hp to make him worth a separate rune. Much boosting to base abilities or hp probably runs the risk of making the propogate & swarm a bit too meaty, so I'd like to see these two as his upgrades - Upgrades 1) Death Spawn:Carrionling (+5 nora), 2) necrosis (+4 nora). His rune version (which is the only version to have the upgrades atm), could help advance the theme and provide some extra meat for the cost. The hp - almost has to be in the 15-20 range. Might need a rework on the other rune stuff, but I'm not quite sure what (except swarm or surge could be problematic if you use carrionlings more). I think the original idea was ravenous worms in glass cannon style, that may be fine with a hp boost, but maybe you could go more passive destruction (auras & death explosions with no regular attack perhaps). His cost should stay the same - in the 39-43 range if around 20hp, probably less if he loses some of the abilities and/or has less hp. Colossus - Like all titan's he just doesn't see a ton of play, 101 nora is alot of nora in a theme that's usually playing down a font or two. Not sure what's a perfect fit for him or his carrionlings, but it's really hard to get enough of a benefit out of him. Might be interesting with removing Immunity Disease, -1 speed, Upgrade 1) Life Siphon in place of Disease Aura 3, and 2) Opportunistic Assault or Manic in place of Vivify. Hopefully final cost would be in the 95-101 range. Bloodworm - speed -1, add blood bond 2. Would be fun to play with reinforce on this guy. Not sure about some of the others. Ideas for the future - Spells, relics, & equips ideas if you want to make Carrionlings more of a worm thing (seems thematic) - 1) Rain of Worms - summon 3-4 carrionlings, ae spell of sorts, 2) Worm Infestation, equipment, friendly champion gains Swarm:Carrionling, 3) Rotting Wound, spell, enemy units take 5dmg each turn, when unit dies a carrionling spawns, 4) Carrion Host - spell, friendly champion gains Death Spawn:Carrionling, and 5) Writhing Pustule, relic, shadowspawn, bone trap with carrionlings but with a spawn on-destroy or after X turns mechanic. For champs - Boost would be nice on a worm as would Drive (re-worked or new). Unit idea for Worms & Zombies - Rotting Bishop, Race: Zombie, Worm, Abilities - No attack, Sermon, Boost, Drive, Lay Plague Trap maybe, Upgrade 1) Zombie Apocolypse or Necrosis perhaps.
@PoxAurora carrion colossus is actually one of the best worms and pretty regularly wins games for me. The best thing worms can do right now is the element of surprise, with an expanded SDZ and having roughly 16 different options that you could literally just drop adjacent to a unit that is giving you trouble. Things that punish disengaging or lock things in place are definitely most helpful. Example is rotmaw creeper. he is fantastic at ranged harrassment and can start punishing retreats right off his deploy thanks to necrosis. I could see an initiative unit with clamp being pretty fun for worms
@themacca - More feedback is good, I just didn't see many responding. Carrionling is widely cited as weak/problematic in the worms thread in FW, so figured I'd talk about him and the entire carrion module with my thoughts.
Its good to have more feedback and suggestions,but carrion collosus is fine as he is. Carrioling is an problem that should be solved.It has a huge price to prevent being overefficient for death benefit bgs and because it use to be the same champion as the summon. The carrionling(real champion) and carrionling(summon from swarm,propagate and death spawn) are two different champions now, so changing the real champion wont impact the summons. Carrioling should gain speed and hp and maybe an new upgrade or two and get rid of curse and immunity acid .It should not be cheaper then 20 nora to prevent abuse. Twilight creeper,reflecting creeper,bloodworm are not bad runes,but they dont provide anything unique or valuable to worms. They dont need to be buffed,but changed to have different abilities or more specific roles. Mindthief creeper is okay,however his first upgrade line is just three ranks of reflection,which doesnt make much sense on him. Three ranks of any aura or anything like that would be better then reflection. Then there is the blinking creeper,which is also an okay rune but suffers from poor and weird choice of abilities it its own way. Petrifying gaze means that it needs to get close as an squishy ranged champion,replacing it with stun would be better and cheaper i think. The second upgrade line offers poor choice of upgrades.Detection is the best option but that is already done by eye of serkan. Necrohex could also be changed to something useful,like giving champion propagate: carrionling,or an aoe which gives death spawn:carrionling. Creeping pustule could use evasive or cheaper cost.Its an worm themed rune thats rarely used.
Initiative and reinforcement are pretty good on worms since they can be used in combination with expanded deployment zone to deploy an champion and attack or activate an ability. Mindthief creeper can be used in that way to paralyze the enemy but it breaks his stealth.A better example is chattering maw with sonic roar. Clamp also sounds good for worms,they could use more cc now that bile zombie will be less used.
