I was going to suggest this thread get stickied, but given how it has progressed, perhaps it'd be best to simply let it die.
Short Answer: Champions are costed automatically with a manual adjusted of +/- nora where needed. Full Answer: Algorithmic costing was we did it originally in pox, and that basically stayed true all the way up to malj. It was around then the power curve started to a turn and the old costing algorithm was no longer much of a guideline. Basically, the costing algorithm did not follow the power creep, so as time went on, the old algorithm became less and less relevant. The idea is that the new costing algorithm should work in most cases -- but its still a guideline, not a rule. At the end of the day, there is no reasonable way to dynamically cost the interaction between every ability. So it will never be perfect. That said since the costing algorithm is a baseline, we are able to adjust that baseline across the board. The good part is, I can make a statement like "high-end units cost too much", and address that by tweaking the algorithm. The algorithm does not have to perfect, it just has to be close. We will know when we get there, when players start talking about the cost of individual runes instead of "high cost units" at large.
What's your opinion on the differences between rarities? There's been a lot of public outcry about the unviability of various limited runes, and how even legendaries are being outclassed by commons. What does the difference between rarity mean, from a gameplay standpoint? Should we expect DOG to try making exotics and legendaries, if not more powerful, at least more unique?
so in time, will their be a more defining abilities for champs who are of higher rarity? i imagine when the nora cost reductions get figured out on the larger scale. i'm totally on board with the every ability has a price gameplay.
Now would be a good time to push toward a strategy of higher rarity = more expensive/interesting abilities = cooler/less efficient champions. It seems like a lot of that happened already and it doesn't have to be a strict policy, but it would make them a bit more coveted without selling power. On the other hand I totally don't mind that most of the legs/LEs are mediocre now, even though I own a lot of them. In the long run it's much better for the game.
Thanks for the update and its good to hear that there will be a patch, can you confirm that the rune checklist will be fixed? its difficult to build a deck without knowing the upgrades! Will you be fixing Starshine and addressing KF beasts as these are the main two game breaking issues.
Could some of the really expensive Champions stay really expensive, but become a little better instead? Something for the Timmies!
Yes to this.don't always need high efficiency. Sometimes you just want to make your opponent poo themselves when you deplo a rune
I don't know how works your algorithm but i will suggest a thing. This is a "collectible" game and for this reason in the algorithm you MUST include the rarity of the rune. It's possible it's already a part of the algorithm, in this case you need to increase the gap between the rare or under and exo or over... For example, ironically, if exists 2 runes with 2 different name but identicaly in stats and ability, the common one can cost 100 nora and the limited one 70 nora. Many of the hig-end runes are exo limited or legend... it's simple math to adjust. I will see you an example Pox K'thir Arrow harbinger Dmg 11 Speed 7 Range 3 - 6 Def 1 HP 48 Initiative (1) <-- now low value ability Scry (1) <-- ever low value ability Attack: K'thir Arrow <-- common attack Flight <-- Good abiliy Elven Mage (base) Dmg 12 Speed 6 Range 3 - 6 Def 1 HP 38 Loyalty <-- need to recalculate the base stat Frost Nova (3) <-- good ability Attack: Magical <-- better attack than phisical one Iron Will <-- low value ability Teleport (1) <-- Power ability Elven mage (loyalty recalculated) and compare to Harby --> in red where mage is better than harby Dmg 12+3 = 15 --> harby -4 Speed 6 --> harby +1 the only one true thing the harby have better than the mage. Range 3 - 6 --> harby the same Def 1+1 = 2 --> harby -1 HP 38+5 = 43 --> harby +5 Loyalty <--> no comparation with harby added in stats Frost Nova (3) <-- infinte better than scry but i will equiparate the power with the +1 speed Attack: Magical <-- better attack than phisical one Iron Will <-- Same value of initative 1 Teleport (1) <-- i will compare with fly but i think teleport it's better Elven mage it's an uncommon and harby a Limited. 12 nora to have -4 damage +1 speed -1 defense +5hp, an attack damage worst, scry instead magic nova, fly instead teleport ... With this comparation without changing the ability an harby must cost less than 88 nora ... less less less less than 88 NOT 100!!!!!! I will not to be buffed the harby or nerf the mage, i just will make and example of the toooo wrong nora calculating system.
Glad to hear a new patch is coming! I agree with pede about Creep and claw, it shouldn't be racial because it's a very strong ability which give a powerfull buff
Awesome news, Please don´t overlook "Disciplines" and "Ferren Focus": Crippling = inhibited. If frozen then paralyzed. Freezing = frozen. If chilled then inhibited. Forbidden = distracted. If paralyzed then blinded. Sundering = sundered. If charmed then slowed. Chilling = chilled. If frozen or slowed then distracted. Alluring = charmed. If distracted or inhibited then stunned. I know this allows interaction between ferren and kas while It simplifies them in a certain way, because before this change we had two ability sets: FF and Kas, but both have been substituted with far more complicated mechanic imho. It is also less appealing flavor wise. Maybe having Ferren Focus back and simplifying Disciplines would solve the problem. Disciplines could be changed so they still interact with FF by turning them to something like this: Ferren Focus: slowed or frozen > awestruck > stunned 1 > stunned 2. Kas Discipline = distracted > paralyzed > crystallized 2*. *Crystallized 2: Target champion is crystallized for 1 turns and Frozen 6 (This unit has -1 DMG, -1 DEF and -1 SPD )
What about some of the obvious synergies that make a rune more powerful than they should be for their cost? i.e. There are a good few champions that combine a negative ability with an ability that completely negates it. Thinking - Aquatic + Trail: Water - Berserker 3 + Unstoppable Things like this, making units much cheaper based on downsides they don't actually have.
Just want to throw this out there. It might not be that the higher nora units are overpriced but rather the lower priced units are just too strong. For the most part there isnt much difference between the strong 70 or less nora units compared to the 80-100+ nora ones which is where the issue comes from imo. If anything the higher nora units might not have the best design but they are not really that expensive compared to the revamp, just people are not use to actually paying for what they get yet.
I would like to submit once again that we should kill off CnC and move the spiders back into their own Theme focused on web and spiderling swarm (which in my experience are far more interesting to play with and against).
When I look at Falconer and Ironfist Agent I think to myself: one thing that should separate cheaper champs and more expensive champs is that the cheaper ones should simply not have access to the 3rd level of some (offensive) abilities. That way, the more expensive champ is sought out for that very reason. The littler guts can do some similar things as the big guys but they can't do them as well.
Can you throw us a bone and talk a bit more about witches and their thematic / class ability? Multiple ranks of multi-attack and climb are not within the same league than curse, and we already have a thread on the faction forum where we posted the cost for said ability is strange to say the least (BotU and zombie apocalypse are cheaper, and while elsari coven is cheaper than soul collection, the difference is only 1n), so personally I find baffling to hear CnC is going back to base to several champions, but EC remains as an optional upgrade on more than half of the champions with said ability. Heck, witches don't even get a mention in this thread.
- This. I made a stink about unstoppable + berserker when it arrived on warogg first. Not because its OP but more because it just injects uneccesarily "busy work" into an already convoluted ability mish mash. Its a roundabout way of justifying over efficient stats tbh. Teleport and stationary, multi attack and ponderous, flying and lumbering, etc etc......ugh its not as clever as they think it is.
I agree with the concept of Leggies-LEs being expensive/not-optimal/overpriced but be unique/interesting/fun. AKA I'd rather not see an exo+ rune in competitive play ever again BUT have them be unique, THAN having them be balanced/toned down in order to be viable.
