In this thread I hope we can bring up thoughts or point out problems with certain abilities, not related directly to the champions they are in but mostly in comparison with others, also thinking about reducing needless complexity. Poxbase now has a ability index with prices: http://www.poxbase.com/#!/abilities I'll start: Non basic attack abilities: About non-basic attack abilities in general, I think they are really toxic, because they don't follow a template and they have, more often than not nedless or badly chosen ranks. For example, one of the worst: Flame web: Make an attack against a champion within 4 spaces. If successful, the target takes 70% Fire damage (with a minimum of 8) and becomes Charred for 2 turns, Grounded 2, and Ensnared 2. why is bad? because weird percentage (70%) of DMG, plus an arbitrary minimum, a non canonical range (this doesn't look too bad now, but it's still both range and melee) and causes three conditions, that seem like a bit too much. An example of nice non basic attack ability: Arrowshot: This unit makes an attack at Range 3-6 (CD 3). It lacks "physical" to be perfect, but you get the difference with the one above, no dmg modificators (I would stick with either full damage or half, without other modificator and without minimums) and a natural range, that complements a melee unit nicely, withot turning it into a ranged one. An example of bad use of ranks (it has also a "bad" range) Hawk attack: This unit attacks target champion within 6 spaces with Hawk at +2/3/4 DMG. If attack is successful, target champion gains Eviscerated for 2 turns (6/9/12 nora) (CD 2) This ability has changed recently, as I see it, the ranks are more or less inconsequantial, as a champion with rank 1 does the same as one with rank 3 and 2 damage points in a attack every other turn hardly justifies 6 nora difference. I think that ranks in this case would be better used to manipulate the CD of the attack, that is a parameter that would actually change how a rune is played with the ability. This can go on a really long list, and I didn't checked for pricing problems between them yet, but I really hope they can be streamlined and cleaned. Other ability issues: Decay versus dark healing: I noticed that the conflict between these two abilities have been resolved by removing decay from the game, when I think it should have be the other way around, based on the cleanliness of decay as an ability compared to dark healing: Decay: Opposing healing is reduced by 50%. Dark healing: When an enemy champion is healed by a spell or activated ability, the amount healed is reduced by 50%. At the end of each turn, friendly champions are healed by the same number of HP, distributed evenly among them (rounded down, minimum 1). This effect does not stack. As you can see, dark healing has conditionals a wonky and delayed side effect rounding and minimum issues and it doesn't even distribute the heal to the damaged champions like blood dispersal. I say reinstate decay (with dark healing name to avoid problems with the spell). Preferably, in the future, make decay and amplify healing behave like damage amplifications and change both abilities to be +/- 25% healing. (right now decay stacks in order, so it halves the healing and then halves the half for an effective 75% reduction with two champions out) Pricing Issues (nora price): Elusive (15) vs. Arrow eater (14): arrow eater is simply better than elusive Absorb (8) vs Arrow eater (14) : while intuitively absorb is worth half arrow eater, it is in fact worth quite less than that IMO. (Arrow eater looks too cheap in these IMO) Revere: X (10) generally bad designed, but still they need to be base and cost a lot less (I would go down to 0) Prestige (6) vs Bastion of will (8) and Bastion of courage (6) Battle leader (15): no good comparison here, but I believe it's clear it's overcosted just for reference Commander: x (6) Boost (6/8/10): I think rank 3 is autopick with these values, I would try with (5/8/12) Eagle Form (6) vs Dark Raven Form (6) : Eagle form is plain better than dark raven form. added: Invoke: hungry mire (30) vs hungry mire (spell 35): I think this doesn't take into account properly the loss of flexibility of having a spell being used as a ability, with AP usage to move and cast and with risk for the champion. This is a problem shared by cast: ghostly visage (30) And it goes to the other side with cast: alacrity (10!) (but the animation time still is more than the discont is worth) no seriously, compare to invigorate or something like that. and cast: cauterize (6) Cast: dark pact (20) feels appropiate. Amplify frost (4) (10%) vs Ice shard (relic) (40) (25%) I'll add more later as I find out or think about, please contribute yours.
Nora generating/saving abilities: Nora miner 1/2/3 : it generates 3/6/9 nora each round and they cost 6/12/18 nora, only two rounds to pay for the price of the ability seems too low of a tempo hit. Extraction: costs 20 nora and generates 15 every other turn, and costs ap also, strictly worse than nora miner Camaraderie (14 nora) : it makes champions with the same race cost 5 nora less, so you have to deploy 3 times to get the value of the ability back, comparing to nora miner 2 is easy to see that the price on one of them is not accurate. Power store: cd1 ap2, generates 15 nora at the cost of 10 hp and costs 22, considering that each hp has a cost it's still worse in return that passive and infinite nora miner. Flame siphon 1/2 : they cost 5/10 nora to generate 150%/200% of 10 fire damage every other round and cost 3 AP. The pricing looks nearly appropiate respecting nora miner and the drawbacks. Recycle + armory: recycle costs 8 nora and armory 25, with a cd of 3, the net nora gain per round of recycle + armory combo with a 40 nora equip is approximately 5 nora. This is of course in addition to a bigger set of runes/set up with different advantages and disadvantages but added it here as a reference of something that was deemed as outrageously OP and is in fact worse that nora miner. Favor: costs 8 nora, refunds 5 for each spell (sharing a faction), again it looks like too few tempo, council: spells : costs 8 nora and grants 5 nora for each enemy spell, same as favor but it's different in conception Leverage X: these abilities cost 10 nora and they save you 10 nora. completely useless ability at this cost. On attack nora gen abilities: banditry (6): generates 2 and substracts 2 from your opponent. You are ahead after two attacks. Call to arms (4): makes champions 2 nora cheaper after each attack. Even in two attacks Essence capture (7): hard to average, but you are most likely to be ahead on nora after two or three hits. I would like to know what do you think of these abilities, but in general, we are talking about basically no tempo hit for a huge profit. Healing, cleansing and dispelling: Heal champion 1/2/3: heals for 4/8/12 for 3/6/9 nora, rank 1 and 2 are ussually deemed as inconsequential. I think the linear cost increasement isn't right, as the abilities share the same cooldown and AP cost, making the higher ones better than just proporcionating the health. I would keep just one rank if I decided though. These two arguments apply to almost everything with this range structure and I won't be repeating it. Heal mass 1/2/3: heals in a radius for 4/6/8 for 3/6/10 nora (see! non linear) Divine favor 1/2/3: heals globally for 4/8/12 for 7/11/15 nora, this pricing is weird, because you get more heal for the nora the higher the rank, meaning that rank 3 is strictly better than those below, and that's a problem. Heal self: ability I feel unnecessary charged heal: ussually good, cannot be evaluated as standalone Impart (as example of random abilities with healing as secondary effect): I would remove from the game. pending....
@ Elusive vs Arrow Eater. They're close, with LoL attacks being the biggest example of where Elusive > Arrow Eater. Disagree with Revere: X's need to be base, it's not really a theme where you feel punished for playing it, it's on singular runes and you can choose whether to optimize them within that set or not. Dark Raven FORM COMPOUNDS WITH THE OTHERS. All the others simply override each other. Battle Leader if it really costs that much I'd have to, ditto with Absorb costing being a bit arguable /sign. Though I want to note, Gedden did make a point to say that he didn't want us to all become obsessed about the price of things, so tread carefully and no overly nitpicks (Arrow Eater vs Elusive is definitely one where it's 15 vs 14).
Arrow Eater being better than Elusive in most cases isn't really a bad thing. It's fine for an ability to simply be better than another if the rest of the champions abilities, stats, and cost balances it out. Here's an actual issue: Dogpile isn't applying the debuff on champions affected by it, and the additional damage isn't going through.
@ StupidJerk, That's a valid point and one I'm certain Q understands, his point though and, what I agree we should avoid are things that are better AND cost less. It's not the case with Arrow Eater and Elusive though. I like having both if I can, but the one I'd prefer varies depending on faction. If you stun an elusive champion you can bypass it, but on the other end of the spectrum you can stun AA champs with ranged attacks, since the attacks are successful; situational for sure, but neither are superior and I don't want to start nitpicking since the difference is 1 nora ._. For closely costed abilities I think it's better when they don't compare and hands down one just wins in every situation e.g. I don't see how ranks of rend is even comparable to getting ranks of tough, which have significantly higher returns with the x clan abilities.
I understand what you say, but I think that these kind of total defensive abilities are as powerful as the counters they have, and elusive is just dodge rank infinite and so it has lots of counters while the only counter to arrow eater is LoL attacks and soulstrike, that is basically melee outside of FW. I would be ok with having an "unfair" arrow eater cost if it was an UD melee bruiser exclusive ability but that's not the case.
An attack that has to hit but doesn't have to deal damage to apply an effect will in principle affect Arrow Eater champions, but not Elusive champions, Curse would be an example here. A lot of on-attack effects put on requirement not just successful attack, but successful damaging attack, so that point can be moot.
Ok, "simply better" was not a good idea, but don't you people think that 1 nora is too little a difference for those two abilities?
Revel in misery (12n): When an opposing champion with Cursed, Hexed or Diseased is damaged by an attack, this champion heals for 25% of the damage dealt (to a minimum of 3). Life siphon (10n): When this unit attacks and deals damage to a champion, it vampiric heals HP equal to half the damage dealt. Damage acolyte (6n): Whenever a champion take type damage this champion heals 2 HP. This does not include damage from DoT. Damage acolyte does not even need to do something to obtain a healing, and given the variety of sources (auras, spells, terrains, on top of basic attacks from the champion and other units) quite often it can heal the same than life siphon. I haven't tried it recently, but it was entirely possible to turn acolyte into a pseudo-reconstitute by designing the bg around a single damage type. Now, revel in misery cost twice the same than acolyte, and while isn't limited by damage type and a higher HP heal, it have the condition of requiring the target to have a condition applied previously. Most of these conditions doesn't come for free (the only exception would be cursed through elsari coven, and we can argue is the weakest debuff from that list), can be cleansed and have defined durations. On top, half of the 6 champions with RiM doesn't have a form to apply themselves any of the conditions so the BG have to be designed around this synergy to take full advantage of it.
Does anyone knows if PoxBase is having problems or is a long term change the absence of the nora price on the abilities? It also appears the abilities page is down.
I'd made my own thread but it probably makes more sense to keep these things together. Closing my own. 1: Global/Area Buffs For me, these are the number one priority. These abilities just stack efficiencies onto (typically) cheap champions. Battle Drum Current cost: 6 nora. Proposed cost: 12 nora. Compare this to draconic benediction, which produces the same effect with one extra AP unit at 65n. There are disadvantages and benefits to running a champion over a spell, but what are those pros/cons worth? Boost: X Current cost: 6/8/10. Proposed cost: 5/10/15. Rank 3 is the main offender, as the range increase minimizes AoE vulnerability and there is an additional point of defense. Battlemaster Current cost: 2/3/4. Proposed cost:3/5/7. Not a huge buff but as long as they can stack it's a cheap way to gain more efficiency. Surge:X I am going to break this down a bit since there are a few types that are harder to increase than others Surge-enemy. current:10, proposed:14 Surge-poisoned, g'hern. current:5, proposed:5 (I guess you could get poisoned up with a well-placed poison cloud but it seems very situational, and there usually aren't very many g'hern even on a well-developed board). Surge-shadows. current:5, proposed:8 (Less situational than poisoned but still does not create extreme numbers. Surge-everything else. current:5(with some exceptions)/12, proposed: 10/16. Ideally, surge would pay a premium for being on range 3 and greater units. Amplify:X Current cost: 4, proposed cost:10 Note: amplify magic is already costed at 10, probably because it is a very common damage type. You know what else is a common damage type? Any type that you've dedicated your deck to. Regal presence Current cost: 8, proposed cost:12 Boost 3 with a reduced range and situationally useful conditions in fearless/iron will (and consider that iron will negates distracted now). 2: Attack abilities Charged cones/bombs/breath Current cost: 4-6 depending on damage type, proposed cost:12-14 depending on damage type. These are equivalent to rank3 of the normal bombs/cones/breaths, which are costed at 12-14 and are already very powerful. The charge mechanism and 4ap/attack chain cost are already equivalent. 3: Defensive Abilities Resistance:X Current cost: 2-4/3-5/4-6, depending on damage type, proposed cost: 2-4, 4-6, 7-9. Just needs to be a bit of a harder decision to choose rank3.
Max rank bombs/breaths = 12-13 nora. Charged breath/bombs = 4-6 nora Charged Blast = 6 nora VS Blast = 20 nora (Like...how?) Pull = 10 nora. Relcoate Foe: 8 nora. Enhance Weapon = 6 nora Inspire = 5 nora Constriction = 4 nora. Ensnare = 5 nora. Lifedrinker = 8 nora Souldrinker = 11 (It's worse vs summons/summon-like units) Reckless Blast cost seems to not account much for its drawback.
It's hard to consider charge abilities withot considering also the charge accrual mechanic asociated to them, but yes, blast looks overpriced. About battle drum, I agree on the proposed cost, and I want to add that battle hymn should be costed a bit higher too, it generates 2 AP. Also, these two abilities have the difference of affecting only same faction champions (battle drum) and any champions (battle hymn) and I think that difference should go. Maybe even removing battle hymn for everybody but moragen is the thing to do, but I still think that it should affect all champions.
Doesn't arrow eater also give a damage buff? I know most people smart people do not attack AA or elusive champs but it is an advantage. Not to mention stunning an elusive champion allows other ranged champions to attack it while AA does not. Also precision goes through elusive, not so for AA.
Right now DoT costs follow the format of +3/+6/+9. I feel like DoT cost should be correlated with the champions range i.e. range 4 or greater has higher costs than range 3 or less, but maybe everyone else is fine with how it currently is.
