No, not foam. Seems to be a rather huge over-reaction to me. +4 Nora, removal of DMG and DEF for Semi Aqua, and +5 for Aquatic, which really no one should have been complaining about since it's effectively Lumbering outside of Water tiles. Full disclosure I mostly play FS, KF, ST, and SP, with most focus on FS. Then again, I also don't play Aquatics much since the revamp (prefer Meta, Firk, or some more random decks). I dunno, I wasn't against like a slight nerf to the ability (though really I thought Aquatic should be left alone), but this just seems like too much. Your thoughts?
I for one love Aquatics, and am happy they did it. The +1spd is a bonus in its own right. The way it was previously; was in no way a penalty. Still not saying it wasn't over nerfed, but I am happy it was touched up for now.
Circadians are largely unplayable. Pirahnids are still fine. With unplayable circadians there is very little reason to play the theme.
Certainly some of the Semis/Aquatics need attention, and we'll definitely get to doing so soon(tm). Removal of the stat bonuses makes them much easier to evaluate, and I am certainly open to reversing/mitigating the Aquatic nerf in particular if it has proved too much.
Yeah, the only problem is it is rather painful to play FS right now. We had a much smaller bench of playable/competitive units but we have been hit almost as hard as the top factions. It is not so bad for me because I have a wide enough collection that I can just play other factions, but FS, with its weirdness, is my favorite and it saddens me that I have to do it.
I'd be much happier if they got rid of the lumbering clause and gained a debuff outside of water, including a negative speed and large negative defense modifier. Aquatics have most trouble getting to fonts early if they can't get a water source, if they had a debuff they could at least contest but they would likely get wrecked but at least your opponent wouldn't get a free turn to deploy. I feel aquatic bg's have the highest first turn draw loss rate of any others.
Still say that the way to address Semi was to make it a 1 speed gap rather than a 2 speed gap. I think hitting the stat modifiers is the way to go, but making this ability nora-positive is a blunder.
I feel as if a big part of the nerf is happening due to complaints that occurred before the revamp. I haven't personally seen much of anyone playing Aquatics or Semi-Aquatics since coming back to the game. Based on a quick glance, it appears a few more units no longer tread into 8 speed range (Circadian Templar and Chronologist). It would also appear the Pirahnid had cost increases or lost abilities, making them a bit riskier / more intensive to use early game. Are people really having that much of a problem with + 1 increased damage and defense that facilitates it being removed, then giving Semi-Aquatic a + 4 cost increase? Because every other faction gains free damage or statistics in other ways that don't require being around water. And let's be honest. You can't feasibly have your units around water 100 percent of the time. Terrain mod, terrible draws and other factors can prevent you from having water for a couple turns, which makes many Aquatic / Semi-Aquatic units average at best.
As someone who played aquatics prevamp and revamp I think it was always the Pirahnids that were the main problem.
Agreed. I would have much preferred them bring nerf the pirahnid module without grinding the circadians into dust. The pirahnid were definitely way to strong, and are probably fine with this nerf (if anything, they could use slightly more of a tap). This just did a lot of collateral damage in the process.
If you look at it though what did the majority of the pirahnids have that took them over the top? The majority of the op pirahnids have berserker 3 and multi-attack which i believe is the sole reason they appeared so overpowered. Bloodfiend with berserker 3 16 damage 9 speed without berserker 3 12 damage 7 speed Huge difference their if you ask me, the speed is what takes the aquatics over the top and for some reason that is what they kept on aquatics.
On a related note: Razorfin also has very high SPD (generally 9), as well as high damage, no Careless, and Sunder. It's much squishier, but it's also that much cheaper. The main thing though is that it's fully Aquatic, so even though it even has Trail Water, it has difficulty reaching a target before it dies (horribly), at least without a Quagmirrian or something to give Flight. End result is that Pirahnids have generally been very strong, having high SPD, DMG, and often ways to multiply that DMG beyond the norm. Yet the much cheaper Razorfin is almost completely ignored (even the Electric Eel tends to see more play). I don't think the relative squishiness (particularly when taking account the nora difference) is the reason for it, even though, offensively, it has many of the same qualities minus the "semi" part on the Aquatic.
Quagmirrian's Flight does not help aquatics. We dont know if it is a bug or not becouse it exactly do what its description says. "This unit ignores restrictions and penalties imposed by terrain and may move across chasm spaces without dying. Immune to the effects of Lumbering unless Grounded" Not a single word about aquatics. Moving for Razorfin Sliders on non water terrain cost 2 ap even if they have Levitating from Quagmirrian. Razorfin Slider has only 30 hp and with sunder, he costs 62 nora. His cost is too high for a unit who usually dies shortly after his first attack and needs water to move. If my target is in water already i can cast drown for 75. Aquatics were only useful on maps with a lot of water. Now they cost +5 and their bonus from water is removed. I dont like this. edited to correct some grammar error
As mentioned earlier in the tread I feel pirahnid held the majority I power in aquatics/semi-aquatics. Now the pirahnid are a little weaker but still fairly competitive while circadian were hit by a semi. Not saying aquatics weren't overpowered but I feel like the units needed a more individual look instead of nerfed as a whole. Hopefully they will be more balanced out down the road when there's more time to look at them closer.
Maybe a deeper change is needed. Something like Semi: water in AoE 3 + 2 DEF and DMG and mobility. If not, - 1 SPD and 3 HP loss Aquatic: water in AoE 1 + 4 DEF and DMG and mobility. If not, - 2 SPD and 6 HP loss. It has an element of uniformity, removes the most unbalancing aspect (Speed boost) and makes aquatic playable without needing to drown a map in water. I'm not sure what these would need to be costed at though. The bonus for aquatic might need to be +3 rather than +4 as a point.
