I feel that Arctic Gift is extremely cost efficient and slightly overpowerd. Please keep in mind I don't play ST as my main. I have not lost to ST in a VERY long time. This is purely theory crafting using the most likely scenario. I still believe this is a good read if not for a laugh, to mock or to agree. Regardless; have a look you might like it. If my information is incorrect/outdated tell me I shall update and change my views with regards to the new information. TLDR: Arctic Gift way too cost efficient. ST Common. 20 Nora: (20/4=5 You are getting these benefits at only +5 nora per champ deployed.) The next 4 friendly champions deployed or summoned have Arctic, Ice Veil and Domain: Snow. Lets look at the Direct and Indirect buffs and de-buffs. Yes I said de-buffs. Direct Buffs Domain Snow. +2 dmg +1 def on snow or ice. Arctic. Cannot be chilled. +1 ap at end of turn while on snow or ice. Ice Veil Massive Ice Generation for 3 turns. Indirect Buffs Free ap on a semi global scale with a minimum of 2. (1 ap at the end of that first turn. Enemy turn. Then 1 ap more ap before it dissipate at the end of that turn. Total 2 free ap) It has 3 more uses after you deploy that first champ. ap gen can be extended. Arctic units as stated before get +1 ap at the end of their turn while on snow or ice. Ice Veils massive AoE means ice covering a sizable portion of most maps. While providing free ap and terrain control; it also applies a de-buff to the enemy. (See below) \/ Indirect De-Buffs All non Arctic champs that do not have flying receive -1 spd. Essentially a semi global -1spd nerf to the enemy. Fighting near fonts or center of map become slowly harder for the enemy. You are getting +1 ap per round while they are getting -1ap per round. Allowing for a possible extra ability use and better champ positioning while possibly disallowing the same for the enemy. I would go so far as to exaggerate <3 @Goyo and say that an extended fight around a central font; lasting more than 6 rounds becomes increasingly one sided. Especially with the champs you deployed having +2 dmg and +1 defense while on the terrain. Total effects. +2 dmg, +1 defense the next 4 allied champs. Potentially massive free Ap generation. Terrain control. and a Semi Global -1spd nerf to the enemy. All for 20 nora on a 4 round cooldown. If it is not an issue. It might soon well be. ___ Had an idea to fix, or a the very least mitigate the ap potential. Remove Ice Veil. Give Snow Veil. At the very least we wont have to put up with that annoying -1 speed. Now we can try to beat out the ap gen.. ___ Please note the thread is meant to be the Devils Advocate. I am not trying to come up with a solution. As I have none. EDIT: I do now.
I dislike this exagerations a lot: "semi global" and "slightly overpowered" are over the top. I would agree it is a problem if it triggers on summons in the middle of the fight, when it is supposed to be an only deploy zone ability (that's why it's AoE10). I would suggest to nerf the ability to only procs on these areas or give them Ice Front for 3 turns if the champion is a summon.
I can agree with it not triggering on summons, but this is hardly a problem rune as of current. it was originally designed to be played with leoss that could not be played with standard st decks because of not having arctic.
There will be no "spell revamp" per se. It was explicitly stated spells would be changed over time, rather than all at once in a big revamp. We already had 2 revamps recently and the devs wanted to avoid doing something big like this again, but instead give us time to adapt to incremental changes. It's good when stuff like this get mentioned again, especially since we as a community may be very aware of it, but the devs have a lot on their mind and this might have slipped under the radar. In any case, a reminder can't hurt. Liked for the TL *smiley* R in the beginning. Just kidding . But yeah, you're totally right. The AP advantage over the enemy is the main problem, especially with the hard to avoid -1 spd on opponents. It's kind of subtler and over time, but it's still big.
I still love my Hoarfrost BG. Hoarfrost, Stitched and UD Spiders are my loves. I will be sad when a fix happens, however for the time being I feel it is doing its job way too well.
I agree I have a tendency to exaggerate however. The 10 AoE Ice generateration is anywhere from 25%-45% of an entire map. Depending on the map. If that is not "Semi Global" then I don't know what it.
Would you mind explaining your facepalm in a sentence? I feel like I would understand better and it would be more constructive.
Let me try. First he was sad I brought it into the spotlight. Then he took his palm, and applied it to his face with much force.
This is what Gedden described as a terrible point of view of a problem. It's AoE isn't an issue at all, and still you are exagerating over it. For the devs it's stressing and a waste of time digging into this thread until someone points out the CORE problem. For me, Ice Veil on the middle of the map isn't intended as a concept, and could be easily fixed by removing it from summon deploys and maybe giving them something in return.
The CORE problem is the AP gen. The 10 AoE allows it to be used 4 times 3 turns each in an AoE of 10. For 20 ap. It also indirectly gives enemies -1spd so fighting near fonts, center map. Starts to become pretty one sided in terms of possible ability use, ap for champ posisitong. As your getting +1 ap while they are getting -1 ap for a very extended peroied. It may not have the flair or direct power as a Mobilization in terms of ap gen, but it is doing its job better down the line than. Like I said. I am willing to change my views. But to bash my views with responses that include ideals that can be allied to most things in Poxnora. "For the devs it's stressing and a waste of time digging into this thread until someone points out the CORE problem." Did nothing to disprove or even derail my theory train. As for the Exaggeration. I exaggerate this much in real life. However I did state when I made the post. This is theory crafting. I am pointing at the most possible scenarios (2ap min per Arctic champ in the AoE) and the most absurd. (2ap per champ deployed. 4 possible champs. 8 free ap. while de-buffing the enemy -1 ap.) Please note I am not trying to be aggressive. I am just trying to provide a plausible counter argument with some if slightly rude humor.
You are missing the point again. AP gen comes from Arctic + Snow/Ice combination, that the spell provices for itself, yes, but that's not the problem at all. What are we going to change? Arctic? Ice Veil AoE and kill it? AoE8 is still great on the middle of the map, AoE6 is still good, but complety USELESS on shrine/font deploy. What you are seeing as a problem is a mere consecuence of having Ice Veil where it isn't supposed to be.
Thank you for saying saying your point instead of implying it. Ap gen is the issue. The problem here is that as you pointed out. "Arctic + Snow/Ice combination" How the ap gen is happening. Unfortunately I have no ideas for a solution for it. As this was the original purpose for it. Increasing the nora cost might make it to much of a tempo hit to be valued enough to use. Effectively shoe boxing it. Changing the runes purpose defeats having the rune itself. Editing the abilities it gives creates a whole new hell of issues. I am at a loss. Do you have any ideas for making it less cost efficient while still being plausible? Please note the thread is meant to be the Devils Advocate. I am not trying to come up with a solution. As I have none.
This thread is an OP gift. Aforementioned ST spell is N O T worthy of nerfing. I recommend focusing on the top 3-5 spells of each faction. Logic FTW.
Problem: it's supposed to be a enabler for splits, it's not because it's not preordained, and you simply can't use it if you didn't revealed it first because of the massive debuff. Solution: make it preordained problem: it's too strong solution: change it to 20 nora 3 champions, or 25/30 nora 4 champions so you need 2 slots to cycle it. problem: arctic solution: remove ready problem: now it's too weak solution: no it's not.
Over the eddited post, I came out with what Gedden said because I'm doing the transcript now so, it pop up from my mind, it wasn't an argument to prove you wrong in any way ofc. About exagerating, comparing it to Mobi is at a level of sillyness that deserves to be ignored, but I'll let it go. I'm guessing then that you have a problem with Ice Veil being too efficient on certain situations, like antirush or "half the map" on FW island, because my explanations over summoning is not solving it. But do you understand that it is intended? I can't tell if FW island is balanced for the game as a whole, but I understand that it's obviously pushing fast mechanics, so late and midgame mechanics gets mitigated while things like Lumbering gets supper efficient. High ranked units doesn't have to move too much to reach your font, that doesn't means they are broken, if anything, the map is an issue. Ice Veil is very useful if your opponent goes there and fight, but that's an effect that is hardly abusable by the player itself, it's more like "if you rush me right now you will be at a disadvantage" for one round. Sure, with 4 consecutive deploys you are unable to rush at no disadvantage. But how many abilities are WAY more impeding than a -1 spd? I'm trying to dig what's your concern.
Honestly I have no concern. I am trying to point out weak points in its use. Like I said. I haven't lost to ST in a very long time. As I generally haven't done a PvP in a VERY long time. This entire thread as I have previously stated is to be a Theory Crafting/Devils Advocate Wikipedia though not beloved says it best. __ "In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position they do not necessarily agree with (or simply an alternative position from the accepted norm), for the sake of debate or to explore the thought further. In taking this position, the individual taking on the devil's advocate role seeks to engage others in an argumentative discussion process. The purpose of such a process is typically to test the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure, and to use such information to either improve or abandon the original, opposing position. It can also refer to someone who takes a stance that is seen as unpopular or unconventional, but is actually another way of arguing a much more conventional stance." - Wikipedia Devil's Advocate. __ I chose Arctic Gift because I believe it has many things wrong with it. Cost, Situation, Possibilites ect you name it. Everything can be in Poxnora can be "Nit-Picked" So I showed the Benifits, Detriments of Arctic Gift to see what people would say. Those that agreed would, and generally not have much else to say. Those who didn't agree would provide an insight or perceptive that I might have otherwise not have had before. I am trying to be the Devils Advocate. I want opinion I want constructive arguments. I am trying to help Pox in a way I think I can. With no disrespect to @DarkJello personally. Post like these: Do nothing. I have tried making "lets balance this, lets edit that" threads in the past. The problem is no one will ever truly agree on one thing. So I created a situation where one thing can be discussed thoroughly. Things people like. Things people don't like. Complain. Swoon with joy, or even Cry. Just come here and create constructive feedback on the topic at hand. That is all I truly want. Side note: The fact that I can't use Tab to show a new paragraph bothers the Bane Shift out of me. I also apologize for any spelling, grammar or punctuation mistakes. Some days I can mess up my typing so hard. I am talking capitalization of random letters in words, hands on the wrong keys, and punctuation and grammar that make an English professor roll in their grave. If this is one of them. Sorry.
