Back in the old days... progressive faction bonus

When I first started playing, faction bonuses were NOT active as soon as the game started. In fact, in order to get a full or half faction bonus, you had to have a certain number of champions (not runes, champions) from that faction deployed on the map in order to activate the faction bonus.

So (if I remember correctly), you needed something like 3 KF champs for +1 speed, and 6 KF champs for +2 speed (this was under the old speed system).

Given the discussions about faction bonuses and their impact on balance and balancing of champs, what do people think about some version of the above? I recognize that there would have to be some modifications to faction bonuses in general (that's been a long-running conversation anyway); however, it seems to me that one of the major problems with the bonuses is that they are automatic, global, and in play immediately...

What would happen if these bonuses were applied progressively, and conditionally, based on the number, percentage, ratio, or other metric applied to the champs you've deployed (perhaps as a function of the composition of your BG?).

Thoughts?

 

Its a different idea, but not one I like.

I think this would unnecessarily complicate things even further.

 

we need 35 rune docks now

Need more BG space.

 

No

 

Don't you think it was removed for a reason? And if nobody ever have asked for its return, is for a reason as well?

 

i DO LIKE THIS IDEA. !!

 

The old CP system was removed for a reason, the old Speed/Def/Attack system were removed for reasons, and Augur of the Deep (and others like him) were released for a reason.

Do we like or agree with the reasons and the results in all cases? I don't. And some of those things that were removed are now coming back... for a reason.

Here's my reason for the suggestion: there is an aspect of this game that is a bit flat or stale, in that in-game dynamics are pre-set: level of runes, abilities chosen, faction bonuses, map geometry. I think that some added in-game dynamics, as long as they are not too needlessly complicated and as long as they are not too easily abused, would make things very interesting.

As I suggested in my post about League of Legends, one thing I really enjoy about that setup is that all champions hit the field at level one, and progressively level up during the game. Perhaps that will not work in Pox (but it would be fun to try)... but I think that faction bonuses as static, global, on-start buffs to battlegroups might be part of that "stale-ness"... wouldn't it be interesting to see if progressive building into a faction-wide bonus would make the game a bit less predictable and a bit more dynamic?

It's worth thinking about, imo.

 

You missed the second part, and from there you actually missed the entire point: there are people who have requested to go back to the old CP system, or wanted the augur to remain as it was. But there have not been people at all who have requested to implement back this progressive thing. Why? Because the majority of people (I would dare to say, all of them) didn't like it. Why to implement something few people like?

And more important: if the most common request is to modify faction bonus, and this suggestion requires it as condition to work, then why don't we focus on the former, before even considering the later?

 

I hear what you are saying, and understand where you are coming from -- I guess my point is this: while we are discussing the faction bonuses in terms of what they do, how strong they are, how they work, and what effects they grant, perhaps we should ALSO be discussing the conditions under which they are granted...

Here's what I mean: Let's take KF, the faction with which I am most well-acquainted. Everyone agrees that the FF KF faction bonus is very, very strong... to the point where it's almost impossible to implement in split faction battlegroups. The +1 speed part is godly, while the +1 AP part is... meh. It makes champs difficult to balance, and has resulted in all sorts of weird accommodations and changes.

Pretty much everyone agrees that it has to be modified in some way, but also agrees that the KF champs have often suffered because of the bonus (6 spd teleporters ftw!)...

I think the same could be said for UD and their damage bonus and all the weird changes to ranged vs melee application of the bonus, and the fact that so many UD champs have low starting damage because of the bonus.

What I propose is that the bonus could be changed, no doubt... but if it were NOT changed, perhaps having it kick in progressively with deployment would be interesting. If the bonuses ARE changed, maybe looking into progressive application of the buff would be interesting.

Again: focusing on the bonuses themselves is crucial, I agree. But I would also like to see the in-game dynamic be a little bit more interesting, and perhaps progressive application of a global buff would be more interesting than a static application at the start of the game.

 

shimaru, i obviously can't speak for everyone here but i'm *pretty sure* a decent chunk of the current poxerbase doesn't actually remember the time that red was talking about.

it's hard to ask for something back when you never had it.


aside from that, basing it just off champs deployed would tilt it pretty heavily towards and away from certain themes and factions. sp, for example, may not get the refund immediately anymore but if you run moga you get 20 deploys in 2 turns (slight exaggeration). i'm thinking maybe runes used overall, but that seems like it could turn into a gimmick thing pretty fast. of course, considering the bonuses have thus far only applied to champions (which if you think about it doesn't actually make sense), FS's aside

idno

 

Interesting thoughts, Dagda. Do you see where I'm coming from on the progressive application of bonus? How might it be gimmicky?

I mean, if you choose to run a bunch of efficient-but-weak champs, you will get your bonus faster than if you choose to run expensive/strong champs... cost and benefit, no?

 

This mechanism sounds similar to a lot of the early racials, which have since developed even further to create even more rich and interesting mechanics. I'm happy with the faction bonuses as they currently stand, and if they do need to be changed I'd imagine tweaks to the bonuses themselves, rather than the bonus mechanism, would work well enough.

 

I think some of the racials are too strong, and need to be toned down (Spiders, Yeti, Ferren in contrast to Garu, Creepers, Skeezick) - I can imagine a progressively applied faction bonus that could be too strong as well, like Dagda said... however, I do envision the Faction Bonus (theoretically, as described above) applying in a form similar to some of the racial bonuses.

 

That's kind the point: while I have not been here from the very beginning, on the many years I have been around, I have never, ever see anyone asking for this bonus thing be reinstated, neither someone without knowledge about that time suggesting a similar idea. Neither old or new players. There are people who asked for circus decks on ranked, to put random chance to hit or miss, to remove splits or at least filter them from ranked. But for the progressive bonus thing? Zero support at all, for so many years.

Honestly? Why they should support it? Split players would find quite frustrating that their bonus are frankly random (not enough champions from one side have been revealed, or some champions have been removed from play, retiring one or both bonus), while FF players would find that the disparity in power between the different bonus is even more ridiculous than before. In theory, factions like IS or UD have been more focused on powerhouses, which under this system would lead to their faction bonus proceeding less often, disregarding the actual power of the bonus itself. Or even within the same faction. Taking FW as example, the witches and vampires have next to no meta champions below the 70n mark, but cheap skeletons are so much that the former themes would have troubles keeping the split bonus up, while the second can count with having the full faction bonus all match, every match.

Is just a migraine bomb that would help in no way the game. It would not help to balance the power of the different factions bonus, and would not improve the overall experience as it would punish certain play styles, namely, split players and super-champion bg.

 

It would punish certain styles of split faction play, and would punish superchamp builds... correct. I think that's kind of the point. Building your battlegroup around "the good stuff" and ignoring synergistic effects, efficiencies, and champ interactions should come at a significant cost. It seems to me to be a bit off-kilter for someone to run a crazy IS/ST superchamp build with 2 champs and still get both the HP and the Spell Resist. They should be required to deal with the reality of their choices.

On the other hand, someone that runs a bunch of cheap/light SL champs should reap the benefits of playing that style more easily than someone running nothing but 90+ nora mega-beaters.

 

i see what you doin


anyhow, the gimmicky bit i was thinking about applied more to if the progressive bit worked with all runes.


and shima, it has actually come up from time to time. it just isn't too common, and as not a lot of people remembered it to begin with it wasn't particularly memorable afterwards

 

Redain, a player who looks for big solutions to big problems rather than waiting for a green to tell him what to think. Kudos.

 

Might make illusions more useful...

 

also used to get 10% discount on champs for running banner in ff...for some stupid reason they changed this, i guess they wanted more stupid splits being run :/