I like the Barbs and I think they are fun to play. Here is my current FF IS Barbarian BG...please critique away. No runes are off limits so if it needs to be in there let me know! Thoughts/combos atm: Bastion + Monk + Chief + Might of IF + Flux= Death from a LONG way off! (19 spaces I think if Bastion at full AP) I had Exemplar in there with Chief/unstoppable combo but yanked it...what's your opinion? Don't use Charger Knight, but I could, I just think hes too pricey Huntress VS E. Skirmisher: I chose skirmisher over huntress because of different damage type. But Thor could make my enemies cringe...opinions? Shieldman seems like a beast! Shroud + surprise damage from flank and block 2 keeps him up for a while! Barb Bolt + Inaugeration + Manual is brutal damage for all to share! Fist of Bastion VS Mounted Kinsmen: I have 1 of each atm, and I like the Fist, but his current nerfed state makes me wonder if he is as good as Kinsmen. Whats the verdict on Fist? 1 Barb druid + 1 PoV=Enough healing plus the desperate heal if I get, well, desperate. The druid brings a lot to the table including alt damage type and detection. Good route to go? Leoss monk VS attendant squire: both serve Bastion well, but the winner to me was righteous shield. An impervious Bastion over a charging Bastion? Tough call? Guard Tower VS Earthshaker" Tower is so annoying and tankier. But shaker is spot damage on a relic stick. What's your poison? Thanks for your input!
I have heard some people don't like the new Warchief racials, actually. I'd like to hear some thoughts on this.
Personally, I think they are great! Best racial they've had imo...I wished there were a few more though that would give some extra abilities and perhaps maybe a few more champs with them, but overall I think they are cool. They play akin to sigils (which I like also) but can be enhanced with warchief inauguration (which is a great racial/theme spell). Add in Pride of Sarnghaver for surprised "reverse powerturns" and you have a good theme. TL;DR: More champs with warchief abilities...more (different) warchief abilities Btw Sok, un-nerf the Fist of Bastion a little would ya? His ride down ability really got hammered...does it really need to be on the attack chain especially with the CD nerf? It's honestly nothing more than a situational, glorified charge now.
I think its cool but really doesnt do much to promote a "theme". Stone Clan is strong enough that it causes anything with it to be usable in a Meta Deck. Blood Clan is... More rend. Storm Clan rarely gets used at all. A fouth clan would be nice like Bond said. Maybe Frost Clan? Barbarians from the northen mountains. Change clans to "upgrade" every other round and then scatter some synergy related abilities to promote using them in an actual Barb deck. Blood: Every other round gain a rank of X(Something not rend). Storm: Every other round gain a rank of Skylancer (Dont really like it but Shrug Stone: Every other round gain a rank of Tough. (Still likely the strongest but every other round slows it down) Frost: Every other round gains a rank of Frost Aura? Maybe later on add something like Clan Unity that gives some sort of benefit for the number of clans in play. TL;DR: Clans are cool but dont promote barb decks too much. I run both in just about everything. Tremor for spot damage and Lumbering and Tower for stealth or when one of my ranged champs has to contest a font against a melee. Tower pushes them away so the ranged champ can fight on even ground.
- Warchief.... the term is a keeper. As far as a timer based buff to a single champion that only 1ish of the powers is relevant is where it falls short (along with little to no synergy with the theme itself). It would be better if it even gave abilities " like" : Blood clan : This champion has protective and after X turns gains surge barbarian Stone clan : This champion has bulwark: barbarian (bulwark needs a tweak as an ability though, since its terrible) and after X turns gains aid defense Storm clan : This champion has bastion of mobility and after X turns gains scramble - This is concept IF we are to continue with the warchief mechanic. With some simple ability tweaks you can make the abilities granted actual make playing other barbarians relevant. - BUT I assume Sok would consider tweaking Warchief at or before he does his theme wide lookover. I would consider watering down the power level of the abilities granted in favor of champ/spell/relic/equip based synergy to be released in the future and/or added during this theme pass over. But I can understand simply making Warchief viable and interesting as it might result in less of a barbarian "Revamp" situation.
Just want to caution against making the ability the key element of the theme as it will have to much of an impact on their playability and their design/power level. In general either keep with the idea that the warchiefs are the "super soldiers" with the internal buffs that they can pick up on the death of other warchiefs but with altered more generally usefull/balanced mechanics. OR Switch it to outward buffs so that they become leaders for their tribes keeping with the IS idea of support power being a key faction characteristic, but again with more balanced and usefull abilities to support with. That being said if they keep the bounce mechanic it will have an issue with all your buffs coming from one unit and the power of that boost ala well Boost: X that you are breaking up. Ideally I would like to see a minor constant buff with an earned stronger buff ( internal or external as you see fit, and earned as you see fit) that enhances a playstyle instead of simply making them more efficient or forcing you to only run the units in a racially separate group. They should be able to see play in meta bgs, and additional theme bgs other then their race one.
They seem to be bugged, if you change Bastion the Avenger's ability he still seems to count as Storm Clan so you can pass down Stone Clan from Zedin for instance while Bastion is acting as a Stone Clan. Blood Clan - Enrage instead of rend IMO. Just a thought if you make more barbarians part demon like the Brutality Barbarian where it can make sense just to allow them to heal off Blood Balls and then grant Bleed as the base to the Blood Clan it'd make more sense name wise and give some synergy amongst the barbarians at least the ones that could heal off the Blood Balls you could free up Fearless for a new clan that grants Charge ranks or something, it'd make more sense name wise at least for the Blood Clan and Fearless seems to me it'd go with Charge or Melee Specialist more than Rend. It's not as if making a few Barbarians Demons would make the accidental synergy with Underdepths better per say than the Bleed Theme split with Forsaken wastes as is using the Vampyres, but if that's a concern granting a few Barbarians a new skill that let the more 'crazed' ones heal off Blood Balls without adding Demon to their race would work too additionally if you did that since Warchief jumps you could tack it on as base along with Bleed for the Blood Clan. For the current system and base ability of Fearless, Blood Clan would make sense with ranks of Blood Frenzy per turn IMO. *Just a thought after seeing Nora That's sig, can we please get sig limits on this forum, his post is 3 words and yet his post takes up more space than the people actually speaking on the topic at hand.*
Thing is i resized the image before adding it and it still came out this big, i dont know maybe i did something wrong?
Current barbs make me sad. Oh and I never see anyone play them. Ever. Bondman has 3 paladins and a leoss in there for cripes sake. Sad, very sad. Well... wild chieftain did get incite back. He even got the incite that I had suggested long ago. So that does make me a bit happy. In fact my first day back to pox someone told me the wild chieftain got incite back. Woo hoo! I thought. I rolled out my old barb decks and started to play..... And was completely bored to tears. Some runes had clans, some didn't. Some were good, many weren't. There were a few new barbs but in name only. The pricing was just odd on many of the runes. ZZZzzzzzZZZZZzzzzzZZZZzzzzz.... So how do we make Barbs a unique option again? Here are a few suggestions. General overall improvement to the look of the theme. Barbs are half naked, bezerking, shamanistic, warrior dudes. Barbs should never ever have more than 1 def. That's just how Barbs roll. That being said a lot of the runes changed to race barbarian need to be changed back to human. They aren't barbs. Maybe, once long ago, they were barbs. Now they wear armor and drink tea and wot not. The barbarian has been civilized out of them = not barbarian. Charger Knight, Magnus, Ishran, Ironfist Inquisitor, and the vengent knight need to go. Clans Next all barbs need clans. Right now there are to few barbs with a clan options. I wanted to only use barbs with clans and couldn't.... That's not good. Choosing the clan should play more of a role in deck design. There is no reason, for example, a barbarian archer cant be from the 3 different clans. You should be able to construct a deck choosing which clans you are running. Bastion is interesting in that you can choose his clan. Bit odd that Stone, the best value, is the same price as the other clans. Bit odd that pricing. Maybe address the pricing issue between the clan options to encourage different builds. The bonus for the other two clans needs to be comparable to Stone or there needs to be a large difference in the pricing options for the two clans. Stone clan = unstoppable and tough 1-3. yay, super good. Blood clan = fearless and rend? meh. Needs to be better or cost less Storm clan = Iron will and stormlancer? meh. Needs to be better or cost less. There are several barbs that can get the bastion style clan upgrade option. These include: Barb Archer - Option 1 Clan choice / Option 2 Farstrike 2, mountaineer, Knock back 2 - You don't need Option 1 as it currently is. Barbarian Bolt - Stays the same. Storm clan on base. Obviously a storm clan only member. Barb Commander - Option 1 Clan choice / Option 2 Protective, Battlemaster 3, Enrage - You don't need the 3 ranks of battlemaster as a choice. Barb Druid - Option 1 Clan choice / Option 2 Heal Champ 3, Mass heal 3 - You don't need 3 ranks for heal champ for 1 option. Barb Elite - Option 1 Clan choice / Option 2 stays the same - You don't need power attack on the champ. Barb Exemplar - BASE remove unstoppable and counter attack range - add the ability that gives you nora off the next champ that shares a race with the champ per attack. Option 1 Clan choice / Option 2 Barrage 1, counter attack range, protective - This champ now makes more sense. It can still get unstoppable and tuff from the stone clan if selected. It also will now have several different effective builds. Barb Guardian - BASE remove resilient. Option 1 Clan choice / Option 2 Resilient, ability that gives 3 nora off next deploy to same race per champ, scramble. - More interesting options for this rune with this build. Several ways it can go. Barb Huntress - Option 1 Clan choice / Option 2 resist elec 2, declare hunted, boulder trap 2 Brutality Barb - Stays the same, no clan!! Read the fluff!! He has left his clan. Consripted Warrior - Stays the same, no clan!! Read the Fluff! Elite Skirmisher - BASE Rapid attack 3 moved to base. Option 1 stays the same, switch to option 2 / Option 2 Clan choice switch to option 1. Favored Nomad - Option 1 Clan choice / Option 2 tempo, impenetrable, shielded. - This rune has some issues with its current pricing. There is something off about it. It isn't runnable at 77 nora. The magic damage is needed for barbs. This should be priced to be a 1x include in most barb decks. Fist of Bastion - Option 1 Clan choice, lets face it, fist will always be chosen as stone. / Option 2 stays the same. - This rune was over nerfed. A lot has been suggested. Currently ride down is overpriced for what it currently does. Reprice and get 7 speed on this champ. Ghoulhunter - leave the same. Chooses to hunt undead over the clan. Houndmaster - leave the same, he cares more for his beasts than his clan. Interragator - BASE remove shatter. Just not her thing. Option 1 Clan choice / Option 2 declare target, declare hunted, pummel 1 - More defined role and better options for this champ. Shatter will have to come from the spell, can be an intentional weakness in barbs. Mounted Hawkmaster - Option 1 stays the same. Becomes Option 2 / Option 2 Clan choice. Becomes Option 1 Mounted Kinsmen - Stays the same!! Read the fluff!! "Cast out, hated, shunned...." Cast out of the clan. Wild Chieftain - Stays the same. Quintessential Warchief of the Blood clan Zeddin - Stays the same. Quintessential Warchief of the Stone clan Saving barb rune page 3 for another time and if there is interest in the idea. TLDR; This will make deck building and playing barbs much more interesting. I see a few ways to play barbs using the proposed changes. You attempt to go with multiple clans to trigger multiple warchief procs on champs then inaugurate for a significant damage buff is one option. Or you specialize your champs for specific rolls with clan buffs. Hunter and storm striker vs. flying champs for example. Most likely a combination of the two. There could also be some barb runes added at a later date that would benefit multiple uses of the same clan on the board at the same time.
Dresnar's considerations.... detailed and profound: "Now they wear armor and drink tea and wot not." - nothing more to say. Not that i want confirm all his suggestions on every barbarian's upgrade line but all in all it points at the right direction, nonetheless. great detail! Renegade! (with the might of grayscull)
I am not sure I follow, @Dresnar20365988. Your suggestion is to give Warchief: X Clan to most barbarians? What would that mean for the jumping mechanic? Additionally, for the most part, the Clan abilities currently just give abilities at a discount (in the case of Stone Clan, it is on the order of a 10 nora discount), even without considering jumping. Let's say, hypothetically, that every barb can get Storm Clan. Why would you do that? That'd just be making sure the jumping mechanic doesn't help your build.
that's a good point, hm. when i read his post i had a picture of the Clans in mind that differs from the actual "jumping form". hmm, how such Clan classifying theme could work, i rly have no idea, but that there have to be one is essential for the possibility to choose Clan on most barbs. at this point, i dont like the idea to have this upgrade path (with Clan) completely, but the unspoken idea of more Clan-ish Barbarians. like ThBigChiefs post suggest, maybe in a vice versa way. what 's about the idea the "clanchief"-ability grants benefits for the barbs surround him/her?
- I really dont want to go down the road of war chiefs give X to friendly barbs in Y range....there has to be another way for a chief to give benefits to his allies without just herpderp aura'ing them. - Thats why I prefer mechanics more like aid:defense etc. but within power level appropriateness. It would help give barbs a more unique play style to the faction rather then cluster your champs and then March at their face. - war chiefs could work like soft "commanders" and this could help fight in small or solo skirmishes around the map instead of yet another phalanx driven theme. Next to rework is barb guardian for this reason. He lost camaraderie now lets just commit and cut nexus aura and help him and some other marquee champs become chiefs that are meaningful and synergistic to the theme
The whole jumping thing really isn't that great in my opinion. Honestly I think we could all do without it. I tried a barb deck with 2x conscripted warrior and attempted to force buffs onto champs that I then buffed with incite rage... er warchief inaguration. It was overly complex and unwieldy and that was trying to really make the jumping ability work in a controlled way and not the haphazard way it works now. As it is now the jumping mechanic is so difficult to implement that it really doesn't factor much into the overall strategy of the match, it kinda just "happens". This doesn't lead to much strategy in the game play, occasionally you get a good buff on one of your champs that helps you out a bit or you don't even notice at all. Its not really something that defines the play style and defines the theme. Barbs need something that would define the theme and define the play style of the theme. Making your own Barbarian Horde could be that mechanic. Stone clan would need to be toned down. I'm not sure to what. Tough 3 and unstoppable is just too good of an option. Blood and Storm I cant see costing much at all. Pretty sure there has never been a Bastion ever upgraded with Blood or Storm over Stone. Change Stone and most of the changes I've made above shouldn't bump the cost of barbs up much at all. Some may even drop since I've dropped abilities off their base. The ability cost for the clans don't need to be the same either. Stone could cost more for example, depending on what it is. Sample changes for clan abilities: Stone - resilient / not sure Blood - charge 1 / rend 1,2,3 Storm - not sure / not sure (lets remember too that these abilities are not fully realized on deploy and should confer a discount) With my plan you could customize each rune from a different clan to maximise their intended use determined by the players play style. To encourage single clan deck development I would change War Chief Inauguration to: War Chief Inauguration - Champ gains 1 rank of tough. Champ gains surge clan to match whatever clan that champ is from. This effect can stack. W.C.I. (war chief inauguration), as stated above, would give you an incentive to run multiple runes from the same clan. You keep clan diversity by putting certain runes in specific clans like I did above, for example, Wild Chief in only blood, Bolt in only storm, and Zedin in only stone.
You guys are making it really complicated and really impactive on design. Why can't it just be something that ties a playstyle together instead of a simple power buff to the race? It doesn't have to make every champ directly better, it just needs to just work with them. Rend doesn't really work because the rest of the champion designs do not make sense with a DOT since the majority of the champions/abilities in the theme are about quick movements and high upfront damage, so in general a DOT is going ot be less usefull here then on a skirmish style race. Barbarians are more a alpha strike type who hits rapidly and overwhelmingly on one target/area then resets for it. Maybe not a powerturn race like IS use to be but more solo quick strikes via things like incite/charge/CA Devastate/ride down etc. Think benefit from killing/attacking/fighting and maybe a bit of dying. As far as phalanx or not, IS is phalanx at its core. It doesn't mean it has to be a slow, tight group but it does mean it has to have a buff mentality, specifically localized or single target if able. Guardian is fine as he is, hes far more offensive then any other "phalanx" rune, and his phalanx abilities are notably more temporary/less effective or offensive in nature then defensive. He, and the shieldman work fine. Each race needs defensive mechanics and these two runes function in that regard and as effectively as a barbarian should, i.e. less so then dwarfs. However, a simple fix that would make people happy would be to replace the defensive strike line with Nexus Aura/body guard or something as an option while bumping his price up a bit to keep him the same/higher. If anything IMO, he is just to cheap/efficient compared to the commander who is the more offensive Battle Master champion to the guardians more defensive nature, which could be fixed with a repricing of battle leader imo as even at I think 10 nore now its a bit high compared to say commander/BM which are passive/free buffs..( That or look into number of abilities on champions to help even out the higher/lower end champions) Also the point of the clan ability isn't to bounce or to exploit the bounce, it's just a side benefit that ensures that whatever ability you paid for stays around even post death with the side benefit of being able to potentially make a super chief if you were trying to. A bit ago it was bouncing with other members of that clan out anyway making it easier if that was what you were trying to do,something you could argue should be kept around if that's something you want it to do. Sok just has to figure out if he wants chiefs to be "super soldier" like with internal buffs or leader types with external buffs( or both with one of each in the current 2 buff system). From there pick a string of abilities that impacts how the race plays in relation to each other and what its suppose to bring to IS and have at it. Personally I like the idea of a passive internal one and a active external one, be it self serving or supportive. On the topic of the clan mechanic, WCI should just add a 4th warchief mechanic similar to honorary Sigil ( aka use its code or something like it) to make it function on blood clan ( the most populace clan) the same way it works on the others effectively doubling the target population for one time casts. If it is balanced as is for the other clans its balanced as is for the blood clan, if it needs reigning in you can increase the cost to 30 after testing but it shouldn't need it since its losing the abilities being added. So casting it on any chief grants the same +2 damage, and +10hp but with no additional abilities from blood clan. On a non chief its just +1 /+5 as it is now for blood clan.
Random I'm on break and bored suggestion post: Start by replacing Barbarian as a class would go a long way to making balance changes easier, especially with units like Magnus, charger, Vielwalker, Isran, Vengent, Iquisitor, etc which lore wise have to stay Barbarian since its a race. Clearly barbarians are humans, they were race Human from the start of the game till the most recent relaunch. So just change the code of the 2 or so abilities that look for Race: Barbarian to look for Human or the Class barbarian ( buffing IS/FW human split along the way) and enjoy not having to worry about said units breaking the balance mold with any changes to them or role competition from them for this block of units. It also lets you build non Human Barbarians or Non barbarian Humans, RAH RAH! Stone Clan: The more stoic defender based clan, able to withstand the foes of the stronghold and protect its fellow man/dwarf/thing made of rock. They should focus on keeping their fighters alive, keeping their enemies back, and in general standing in the way of the other player with solid area control/CC imo. Being a human, barbarian they would of course be less tanky and more capable damage dealers/offensive support then if this was a different race. Blood Clan: The more aggressive, excitable, warriors who plunge recklessly into combat or inspire others to do so. They would focus more or dealing with threats directly and taking them out as fast as possible or die trying. The champions, and the caln ability by extension, should encourage them to mix it up or help them get others to mix it up. Storm Clan: The more shaman/spiritual/elemental members of the tribes. I think more ranger/shaman class styling for these units. Focusing on controlling the movement of allies/enemies, adding utility and surprise to the battle group much they way the rangers/shamans do now. Abilities that help set up kills or hinder them would work really well here. Barbarians have always had an AP control slant with heavy REBUKE/AP GEN abilities so more of that would be ideal.
