Boghopper Theme Discussion takes place here. Identify problem runes and things that can be improved and how to improve them.
2 Things with Leap 1. Leap is overcosted. Leap rank 3 is worse than teleport rank 1 and it costs 2 nora more. 2. Since leap 1 is mostly pointless we could just give all boghoppers leap rank 2 on base for 3 nora and then have choice to upgrade for +3 nora and we can get rid of Leap rank 1 altogether then have more room for other abilities.
I didn't say it needed to be the entire first ability line. Just that they need it back. They used to be the mobility faction. (Elevation changes, and Water meant nothing to them.) Now leap is everywhere. It needs to change. Teleport is on select champs, While Leap is on pretty much every Boghopper, and every other champ in the game o.o It makes some sense for it to cost slightly more than Teleport, as it will be extreme mobility on every champ in a bg, while those with teleport use as an essential part of their kit.
what i said has nothing to do with anything you said, I care nothing about having leap, what i do care about is paying too much nora for leap. i just pointed out that telport rank 1 is 2 less nora than leap rank 3 and it is definetly an inferior ability. one could make leap 3 cost the same as Teleport 1 which is 6 nora and that would be fair..... Leap 3 - requires 3 ap and moves 4 spaces. 4 ap if engaged Teleport 1 - requires 4 ap and moves 5 spaces. 4 ap if engaged. obviously teleport 1 is better. but i could stand for them to be even....so leap should have a 2 nora decrease. The fact that its on every boghopper is even more reason that its cost should be correct......im not happy paying 2 extra nora for every boghopper i summon.
Please note that the lore/gameplay of the darkmarsh boghoppers using stealth isn't compatible with leap (and relocation in general, with some exeptions)
The darkmarsh with mudsling and detect iand shadowstrike i love. But yeah leaping aint so neat to use when stealthing. Replace shadowstrike with trickster Nah idk. Jus an idea
hmmm Leap 1 vs mobility.......I think id take Mobility. i think each one is of course gonna be better in different situations but if i have to pick ill take mobility i think. itll be useful in more situations i believe. i personally think all boghoppers should have leap 2 on base. then they can upgrade to rank 3 if they choose.....that leaves 2 slots for 2 more upgrades in case someoen doesnt want to upgrade leap. i know boghoppers are frogs and yea leap is good but in my opinion Leap is 2 Nora overpriced. id trade Leap 3 for teleport 1 any day and pay less nora for it. now that i think about it though. perhaps leap isnt overcosted. maybe teleport is undercosted. when i compare leap 3 to speed stat bonus then those two seem about right. also compare crushing charge to teleport rank 2 both are 10 nora. but teleport rank 2 is clearly better. so yea.....now that im analyzing it deeper i think teleport is undercosted. i wont stand for it!! i think teleport could stand to have +1 nora its only 1 nora of course but every bit counts. either way i think something is slightly off. ive heard several people complain about entire chains of leap though. i like lore and im all for themes but 3 upgrades of leap is just boring.
Mobility would be better than leap 1, (Runs leap 2 on ranged champs so they don't die) but if i had mobility instead of leap 1 on tidemasters i'd be happy Edit. Leap 1 is 2 nora. Mobility is 4. Not worth
Bringing up an issue with logic and pox is always a losing battle but I am gonna do it anyway. Leap 1 is useless. Instead of arguing about mobility and leap 1, and why all bogs have it. Think about this Forglar Paladin. A boghopper of decent size wearing full body armor and carrying 2 giant weapons. Do you think this guy is gonna be able to leap? Boghopper Toad. A fat boghopper who is more of a tank/bruiser than a mobile rogue. Should this fatty leap? What if we kept leap 2/3 on those that deserve it, such as range casters/rogues/etc (not saying all darkmarsh deserve it such as Darkmarsh Witch, Darkmarsh Defiler/etc) Think about it though. I can see Kartch and Gekaal and maybe warriors and stuff using leap, but I never think that Boghopper Bull or Forglar Paladin, Toad, Spawnpool Gaurdian, Darkmarsh Enforcer would ever leap. Get rid of that tier in their upgrades and get more flavorful unique upgrades. I feel that DoG just looked at bogs and said, "Give most of them leap 1,2,3 as upgrade tier 1 and move on" So they could speed up the process of the revamp which was being rushed due to the demand of change.
Toad is a really big frog, though. Leap 2 is a small hop to it, probably. Spawnpool Guardian could probably leap, since he/she isn't armored or anything. I agree that Enforcer and Paladin don't exactly look the Leaping type. Leap is kind of the boghopper "racial" though. The mobility upgrade on the Darkmarsh I don't like is Dive on Snatcher. You can rarely use it, and when you can, it isn't worth the unstealth... (Dive is just bad, IMO)
I feel like Boghoppers are solid thematically right now. They still have good mobility, they have many of the necessary utilities (detection, etc.) and synergize pretty well. Granted, some Boghoppers could use another once over (I'm looking at you Paladin), and there is minor balancing that needs to be done with virtually every faction, but I feel like behind Merfolk, Boghoppers are runner up for the most well-tuned theme.
Be real nice if you know.....Tidemaster got high tide again and.....you know.......Songmaster and The Thing were viable. Tidemaster can lose the leap for all I care. Give him High tide
the main point is strategically speaking, not all boghoppers need leap nor should they have it. particualarly the ones that will never use it in game. mostly tanks for example. such as the ones rors mentioned. its true i dont really see paladin leaping based on his art but also....he has no freakin reason to leap really. leap is for range and font harassers. tanks dont need leap. their job is to go in take damage and die. or not die. depending on how good the opponent is of course. regardless though. i agree that not all boghoppers should have learp nor do they need it. its a nerf to theme to give leap to roles that wont use leap. give me something i can use pls. not a useless ability that costs nora. its already been stated before that racials dont necesarily have to go on every champ. its lazy to just give all boghoppers leap.
The thing is, both Leap and Teleport generate 1 extra space of movement in relation to the amount of AP spent. However, Teleport has a constant 4 AP cost. No matter what, it will cost 4 AP to generate that 1 extra space of movement. Leap, on the other hand, has a 3 AP cost to generate 1 extra space of movement UNLESS engaged. Let's pretend the engaged clause to Leap doesn't exist. Leap would be far superior to Teleport because of the lower cost associated with generating that 1 extra space. But the engaged clause DOES exist, so, personally, I feel it helps even Teleport and Leap out in terms of power. 2 Nora isn't a colossal difference (most of the time). Of course, there's terrain to consider, as well as how often champs are being engaged and a few other variables but who wants to think that hard lol.
well i think it boils down to opinion since the details are so hard to analyze. it is my opinion that that teleport is superior. i would think that most would agree but i am not sure all would.
Leap 1 is not pointless. The basic leap enables disengagement when not possible by normal movement. As far as leap 3 being overcosted I would like the opinion of a balance expert before I make any judgement on its cost.
Something you need to take into perspective about Forglar Swamp. The central theme in our faction from the beginning has always been -->MOBILITY<--. If it was up to me I would give some sagely frog shaman train mobility or train leap, because that is what our faction is a bunch of slippery swamp things that piss you off because you have such a hard time getting them to sit still so u can mash them with your 20 damage champ. Listed below are some other forms of mobility we may consider for boghoppers: 1.retreat rank1(3nora) 2.domain x(4 nora) 3.confuse attacker(6 nora) 4.confuse enemy(6nora)
