Phantasmal Creeper is very similar to the kind of champ that you seem to want Amber Wing to be. It was not a successful build though and is pretty much shoebox. Champs without a Basic Attack have to have something pretty darned good to be actually run. Frostfall Icewisp has Arctic Bolt and Still Life. Stitched Seamstress used to be run a lot when she was cheaper as she had a charged bomb attack. At one time Goblin Spellkaiser had Hex and Flamethrower and Cast: Cauterize. Magic Aura and Grant: Magic Aura just isn't going to cut it. In a 1v1 font battle, Grant: Magic Aura will basically be worthless.
Luckily, it's vastly superior to the others in this category in terms of HP/DEF, as well as Arrow Eater and Bold if selected. And with the change, the HP to Nora Ratio is pretty solid too. And Aura does similar damage to Arctic Bolt really in a 1v1 font battle, with Still Life being basically worthless in that situation. I don't disagree with the premise that units without a basic attack have to be good in other areas, but I feel like you are underselling the Amber Wing's strengths in this regard. Also, Phantasmal Creeper doesn't seem like a good example because it only became the way it is due to a combination of the revamp and the Curse change making it's DMG irrelevant. It's also dramatically different in terms of survivability (aside from Ethereal). It's always had DMG (and pays full nora for it). If it didn't have the DMG it has, which is what would make it closer to the Amber Wing proposal (just with much less survivability), it'd be about 40 nora - do you think it'd be sitting in the shoebox at that price? Goblin Spellkaiser wasn't actually being played post-revamp till I did exactly this... removed his DMG and tinkered with his kit. ~ That said, as others have stated, these types of designs are hard to judge on paper, so while I believe it is runnable and an improvement, I can't be certain either, but after playing around with various iterations of him, I feel like this is worth a shot.
It's pretty clear Garin is a confluence of events borne out of the Corpse Era. I honestly don't remember, but what was the Elven Shade before that made it a problem at release? What changed? Also keep in mind that both Garin and Elven Shade have/had access to greater forms of stealth - and Flash Bomb is not exactly close to that level of Stealth. Additionally, Roughneck had the CA + Flash Bomb combination before as well. Do you remember it being a problem?
If memory serves the shade had multi and shadowstrike and startle so it was constantly popping out and dealing substantial dmg only to poof away again.
If I recall correctly release day Shade had 15 damage (22 with startle proc), 7 speed (8 with bonus) and around 45 hp, on top of those stats she also had stealth, shadow strike, startle, CA, multi 1 and banditry (Not too sure on that last one though). As for Roughneck he's never been a problem because he never had the damage output that the other 2 had, he was 12 damage with 6 speed and his only form of stealth had a 4 turn cooldown unlike the other two having stealth and shadowstrike. However since then detection has become less common and not as effective so I really hope you don't allow Roughneck to get the CA and Stealth combo back.
Charge on a range unit Increase damage to 15 to see any play Since you know... traction for something like this is out of the question I'd you have no clues what I'm telling about then search up the cavalier
I would really like to see some changes to the Cavalier too. What about?: Drop Trample on base Charge 1/2/3 in U1 Add: Escalating Rage U1 Battle Master 3 U1 Tremor U1 Trample on a size 1 ranged unit is not that good, even with charge. Just drop it. Escalating Rage for a offensive build. Its a strong ability but ok for a 7 base damage champ. Battle master for a more supportive role Tremor for good control in combination wit Slam. But whatever you do. Keep Slam. Its such fun to use. Other idea. -5 hp and swap Trample with Escalating Rage. Drop Charge and give him something else instead (something with low nora costs)
What has made Detection less effective? As for less common, I am also not sure that it's actually less common. It's being used less, sure, but I actually think, especially given how many units have a Detection 1/2/3 tree, that it's actually just as available. There's also more stuff like Illuminate around now. Anyway, I haven't seen anyone say anything that convinces me CA + Flash Bomb is out of line other than examples of things that weren't really a problem only because of CA + Stealth, and even your comment largely suggests it won't be a problem. Again tho, Stealth is up for review/adjustment for next expansion in terms of costs and duration, and Flash Bomb will probably be a low duration candidate, so I don't think this will be an issue, especially long-term.
Really, Sok? Really? Ok bud, I will spill it out for you. The champs that have the "combo" (stealth + CA) are: Elven Shade and Garin. We already established that Garin is OP, and even though a lot has to do with Scythe, you can be sure a lot has to do with this combination as well. As for the Shade, I think she suffers from KF players simply having better options to run for melee/harasser, or simply not liking this particular champ. We do not have such a big of a playerbase to support a claim that "if she isnt being played, she isnt good". Now, for the most part, I would say that Roughneck wasnt a problem because he was a ranged champ pre revamp. In other words, you dont really want your ranged champs to function as harassers, you make them deal damage. If Im not mistaken, that dwarf that could deploy relics and have corrupted nora was what was ran in that "area". Even if you dont agree with what I wrote above, you have to acknowledge that the only, and I reiterate, only way to destealth a CA stealthed champ is through plain old Detection, the ability, or UV (which conviniently is also on IS) - or walking up to it by some random chance. So, for the most part, its a counter or loose ability, no way around that. I thought we were moving away from those. Thats the problem with this interaction, not that the particular champ will be too strong or not. Just some food for thought.
Pedeguerra, you have some valuable stuff to add to this discussion, but I'd recommend against starting off the majority of your posts with this or something similar. It's starting a pattern and hurts your message.
Elven Shade and Garin, which I was the FIRST to mention, have the Combo of Stealth and CA. We have established that neither are/were OP precisely of the combo, but largely due to other interactions, but assume the combo is OP in of itself, it can be argued that it's because of the form of Stealth available to Garin and Shade, which the Roughneck will not have. Because unlike Garin or Shade, who can pop out, deal damage, and go back into Stealth repeatedly, the Roughneck will have no such play. We also know that the Roughneck had the Combo before and wasn't a problem. And that it isn't even anywhere near the same level as the Shade or Garin - because the Stealth is on a long CD ability that requires AP to activate, and is used as much for its other effects as it is for its Stealth. As for the ranged comment, that seems silly to me, as Stealth + Ranged (similar to CA + Stealth) has always been considered powerful and potentially problematic; When did it suddenly become the opposite? Yes, I understand what CA + Stealthed does (and do have my own reservations about it), but I really don't follow how being able to Stealth on a Long CD makes the Roughneck "counter or lose" unless you think having a Roughneck running around doing almost nothing most of the time is somehow very strong. If he benefited in some way from hiding in Stealth for a long timel or coming out of Stealth, I If you can explain how the power of Garin or pre-nerf Shade applies to the Roughneck, I'd appreciate it. But "CA + Stealth OP!" over and over, with the only examples being things that are quite different, is not particularly convincing.
@kalasle Thanks for the heads up, you are correct. Its just that my patience is running very thin on Pox as a whole. And at Sok, Im really sorry for being such a pain in the butt - you are a good "game friend", and I dislike getting into so many "arguments" with you. I apologise for my harsh tone. The sentence I quoted above is the exact same thing that happens to NKD, which is considered OP. Note that I do not share this vision, just wanted to say from a general player perspective. Also, you arguments are solid, and I can relate to that. I just disagree when you say he wasnt a problem before, because I certainly can remember this guy being a pain in the butt - but maybe thats ok. Guess we will just have to wait and see, which isnt the approach I prefer, but the one that happens a lot with Pox. Edit: just so you guys know most of the time Im on in the forums is the time Im at work, so theres a lot of stress involved when posting and whatnot, and I realise this isnt an excuse but for ones that do know me theres that.
I would like to see a change to the Redcap twins. Right now they cost the same as Ghalroon but are strictly worse statswise. I would be happy if they could become a tad cheaper, so they're worth running again.
Could we get Trail Slime removed from The Thing Also I was thinking on a rework to Turtle Rider: Buff dmg to 9, spd 5, Def 2, HP 50 Base Abilities: Semi Aquatic, Attack Physical, Attack: Spear( champ makes a 2-4 range attack. CD 3) Upgrade Tier 1: Turtle, Colossal, Boghopper Rider Upgrade Tier 2: Resist Physical 2, Dive 2, Resist Physical 3 I was to lazy to do the cost calculate tell you the truth guys but I would like to see this guy high 70's or low 80's. This could easily be a great tank for the boghopper theme, and in the future I would like to add in water units back to boghoppers. I would like to see semi a little bit of everywhere in the swamp, due to the fact that.....almost all species in the swamp live there. Lore states anyone can live there as long as they treat it with respect but most of the races that currently reside there were born in raised, so why not give semi-aquatic a little everywhere? Aquatic atm is pretty bad so unless that gets a touch up, I don't see anyone using it.
How about for Amber Wing, just give it 1-2 Range with no other adjustment? And if you're feeling especially generous, +1 Damage. Otherwise, a Warrior champ with no Basic Attack just seems silly.
