Can we get impeding 2 terrain back?

KB cliffdiving was easy to deal with, so it happened a couple patches ago. It was discussed, you just missed it.

We are still deciding how to deal with Possession cliff diving, which involves a lot more pieces, both technical and design wise. The scale of the changes are radically different, both in terms of work AND effect (as you noticed, some people who are playing the game don't even known it happened despite it being in the patch notes and having been there for awhile).

I don't consider improving the game one step at a time a "terrible move." Just because I can't nerf X or haven't decided what to do with X doesn't mean if I can Y I won't do it.

In this case, I fathom that this is another case of a bit of bias from you since ST has Gale so I am being "unfair" to ST in your mind, but it's really a matter of what resources I have. Whereas I feel you would have a different tune if you played FW primarily, but this is just speculation based on the kinds of comments you have made in the last couple of years which tend to go along the lines "If this in ST is like this, then why does <other faction> get to have that?", etc..

I think, as a player, this is a reasonable approach, but I can't think of every mechanic change from the lens of a single faction, but rather for the game's health as a whole.

Anyway, IN SHORT, I agree with you that Domi-Cliff should also be dealt with, and it was slated to happen at the same time, but we just ran out of time to deal with it then since it's a much deeper issue - it'll still happen - as I have already said in this thread many times.

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(Another post incoming with more discussion on KB Cliff Diving specifically, rather than whether Domi-Cliff should be removed, which I think it should.)

 

It's more likely that some KB will decrease in cost somewhere down the line.

 

Let's talk about KB-Cliff Diving specifically a bit. In general, people who played KB-Chasms (or had access to it in their factions) thought it was "legit" and "liked" it, but there were/are a lot of people who don't like those kind of instant-kills. This is pretty common and reasonable.

Chasms not being around as much is due to both forms of cliff-diving - which often can decide games very early on some of the older maps. The complaints are mostly gone now because those maps are typically not in the rotation, but I remember them. And I don't really remember many people liking the Create Chasm + KB instant kill stuff.

So there are 2 different worlds here...

The first is a world where KB can cliff, which means that:

• KB sources need to be priced based on their ability to cliffdive
• Chasms maps do not show up much in rotation

This scenario was the scenario I faced when I was deciding whether to nerf it - so what do we get when we change it?

KB Can't Cliff

• KB, instead of cliffing at 0 AP, dealing 5 damage per KB as though the chasm was an object
  • The 0 AP clause will be removed (not in yet), so that Chasms will function as an object in ALL situations, dealing 5 damage per KB
  • Even now, it WILL remove the AP, so it's not useless even if the champ has AP remaining
• Chasm maps show up more often in rotation (once DomiCliff is also removed)

In this scenario, I see the ability to reduce KB costing (which will probably happen soon) and allow for more KB sources - and this can happen before Domi-cliff is removed, and thus you already see stuff like Southern Wave Discipline and the X-Burst abilities which is KB3!

When Domi-Cliff is also addressed, it also means that chasms can be an element on maps again, instead of not being allowed, and we potentially get quite a few maps BACK into the rotation.

It's true that positioning near cliffs matter somewhat less (since you can't get outright killed), but I think even in this scenario, since KB into chasms deals damage still deals damage, it's still a relevant mechanic, and we can do also do MORE with the mechanic in terms of its ability to reposition enemy champions, etc.

So trading the rarer ability to cliff-dive (which is a controversial mechanic to begin with), and allowing more use of the mechanic made sense to me - so it is direction I went.

And I might very well be wrong, it happens (and maybe KB Cliffdiving was cool and should have been kept in the game) but hopefully this explains why I went ahead with it as part of the whole "cliffdiving" thing.

 

Functionally that is what would happen, the question is exactly how that is accomplished and what means. There are several ways of doing it potentially, and each has their own drawbacks and issues and hurdles.

 

You felt proud, other people felt abused. I do acknowledge you feel differently about using Domi-Chasm and Exe-Fruit.

Typically, the flying unit moves over the chasm on their own accord, and leaves themselves vulnerable. It is the advantage, and vulnerability, of being able to fly over the chasm.

Whereas cliffing through KB the champion has no inherent advantage vs the chasms, and are just being ping pong'd into it.

So no, the next step is not preventing Flying units dying to chasms.

I disagree. The game is played on an aesthetic level as well as a gameplay level, and having chasms, even if they are purely visual, would still enhance the experience instead of everything being walls. That said, the intention is to keep Flying over chasms. We don't argue that since rocks/mountains are objects just as like ruin walls we shouldn't have one or the other, and Chasms will likely still have a mechanic difference in terms of Flight.

In any case, the idea isn't to make KB vs Chasms useless. And it isn't useless now, it just doesn't result in an instant-kill - instead, it deals damage (or removes AP, for now). If you move away from whether it's KB-Chasm for a second, and think about it from the lens of tactical gameplay, which direction do you think we should GENERALLY move in? Instant-kills or damage?

 

1) I call it like I see it. I could be wrong, but it seems pretty consistent from my POV. I apologize if I am wrong in this instance, though I feel it's still generally valid.

Anyway, in the case of KB-Chasm, it's tough to separate ST from the discussion since ST has been known as the KB-Chasm faction since Gale Force arrived (and Gale Force itself was nerfed/adjusted at least 3 or 4 times to try and fix it, and it eventually led to the AP change to KB-Chasm which largely removed the mechanic anyway).

And maybe it's possible you did like Create Chasm/KB... we don't have old forums to look it up now, but given what I know of, that seems unlikely - it goes against your general dislike of cheap combos/instakills (including Domi-chasm, which you have described in the past as a "must" nerf).

2) Thanks.
3) Disagree. Positioning badly next to chasms is still going to put you in danger it just won't randomly result in an instant kill if the opponent happens to have something in his non-champion slots capable of pulling it off. This is danger in the same way that standing next to a font, wall or relic leaves you vulnerable to gale sandwiches and I don't think ANYONE would argue that you aren't putting your champ in danger when you do that.

In some ways, I'd argue this has the potentially to actually INCREASE the tactical nature of KB - as prior to this adjustment, the 0 AP clause meant you could rarely actually cliff anyway with KB anyway. If you think the plan of changing it so KB-Chasm always deal damage instead is "a terrible move" then you must have hated the 0 AP change too since that ALREADY largely took away KB-Chasm. At least with this change, KB-Chasm will actually deal damage.

And I don't think Chasms are ugly now and won't ugly later and will still make sense. And ultimately, once Domichasm is also removed, many maps can be returned to the rotation, greatly increasing map variety. I find chasms to be quite visually appealing and offers a different aesthetic compared to walls/rocks/mountains. At the same time, the intention is to preserve Flight over chasm, so it will retain a gameplay element as well

 

To expand a little bit, "it will reduce significantly a great strategy part of the game, which was to avoid situations in which you would be in danger by not thinking your turn correctly" can basically be used to argue for keeping Domi-chasm too, so I can't really see it as just an argument for keeping KB-Chasm, but Chasm-InstantKills in general.

You have said this regarding Domi-Chasm in the past:

Yes, Domi-Chasm isn't KB-Chasm, but you haven't really articulated why casting Gale Force to Chasm-Kill something was so strategic while Casting Domi to Chasm-kill something is not.

As far as I can tell, basically, you are claiming here that punishing bad positioning and "not thinking your turn correctly" is "frustrating, game-breaking and non-strategic" and "needs to go" if it is Domi-Chasm punishing that situation.

But change it to KB-Chasm being changed to DAMAGE instead of an INSTANT-KILL and suddenly it is "reducing significantly... great strategy."

At the same time, I don't think Create Chasm > KB-Chasm really fits the argument either. It was literally just an instant-kill combo whose primary counter was just staying out of range and hoping he can't CC you or generate extra AP to pull it off (of course, he could always harpoon you or something). So to my mind, it certainly doesn't fit the "not thinking your turn correctly" argument. So why did you like that one?

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If we look at the main spell that does KB-Chasm specifically...

Gale Force, is a great spell in many non-Chasm situations - both for direct damage AND for relocation purposes and sometimes even accomplish both at once if the opponent misplays. And it ALSO suddenly becomes amazing if the opponent makes a mistake near a chasm.

Adjusting KB-Chasm to damage instead of cliffdiving simply blunts (but does not eliminate) the extra oomph the spell has when the map has chasms, but it's still a great spell offering many tactical options and the change barely impacts its most common use cases (and in many cases you can still use it for DMG against Chasms).

So Chasms or no Chasms, Gale Force punishes bad positioning on the opponent's part. That's literally the whole spell's entire design. Because of that, I feel that changing KB-Chasm to damage instead of instant-kill MAINTAINS the ability to punish bad positioning (rather than removing it, as you suggest).

Now, of course, we both know Domi-Chasm is somewhat harder to avoid/counter in general, but Gale Force (the primary sources of KB-Chasm) is also quite a bit versatile a spell and much more common. And the fact is, with chasms maps being quite rare, Domi-Chasm is actually not really a thing right now - it's not run. While at the same time, KB-Chasm wasn't much of a thing either most of the time either for awhile now because it has had the 0 AP clause.

In either case, I am sure players who got Chasm'd by EITHER Domi OR Gale Force largely feel the same way - sure, they might have been able to avoid it by better play, but I am sure the recipient feels largely the same about both, and the words "frustrating," "game breaking" and non-strategic" probably would be apt to describe either scenario.