Discussion Corner: Overpowered...?

@Sokolov About all the stuff I've said. Any comments?

 

Spoiler: TL, DR

Fun and Winning are separate things. Fun is often wagered to be competitive. Fun is to be entertained and receive enjoyment. Competition can be adverse to these ideals. It can be frustrating, costly, and alot of work. Yet, Pride in victory can be a high magnitude of enjoyment. To satiate the Ego by finding pride in overcoming a challenge or proving superior in an engagement is an overwhelming joy that can be worth gambling 'aesthetic' fun for. Fun does not guarantee Victory. Victory does not guarantee fun. They can be shared in, but they are two different things and can motivate a player in different ways. Playing with fun being A GOAL and with it being the PRIMARY GOAL are two different things. Their are varying shades of competition and players who expect different things from a game and wager different things to receive 'enjoyment'.

This is really starting to irritate me that you keep misconstruing what i say and only taking it how you want to fuel your biased agenda.

Fun and Winning ARE SEPARATE! They are two different things.
Winning doesn't require fun nor does it guarantee it.
Fun doesn't require winning, no does it guarantee it.

I really can't decide if you are trolling or just oblivious to some of the things you say.
You try to cover it up by using the word 'aesthetics' but you even submit to my claim in that sentence.
People playing competitively make choices that value metagame power over "fun", but that is part of the fun for them.

Fun: enjoyment, amusement, or lighthearted pleasure. << Thats the definition

You're basically saying that if some one enjoys or is amused by something. They take a liking to it and it is of their interests.
Yet in order to play competitively they value metagame power over these things that bring them enjoyment and amusement.
So they make a decision to value things they are possibly less entertained by in order to receive power and stay competitive.
They are wagering "fun".

Yet, you're saying that its the goal that matters and supplements fun. Not the pieces but the overall picture.
So even though they sacrifice some things they enjoy and are entertained by they gain equal amusement from winning or attempting to compete.


However, sacrificing these pieces don't guarantee you the large picture.
You may struggle to win, you may do poorly competing .
So you are gambling 'aesthetics' for the hope of the big pay off and to be rewarded with victory.

Alot of it is just Pride and Ego. Satiating those with supplemental superiority and personal achievement is enjoyable.
So you may feel comfortable sacrificing 'fun' to get a bigger pay off from satiating pride and enjoying a victory.

Staying competitive can also cause frustration and stress. Their is often alot of work and cost involved aswell.
You sacrificed small portions of fun already to stay competitive.
That didn't guarantee you victory and sometimes you get frustrated when losing games.
Its frustrating and stressful when your sacrifices aren't rewarded or when your pride is on the line.
Also, often in games to stay competitive there is upkeep costs.
Do you have the new units? Did you get the event items? Did you purchase X ?
Thats often a angst of free to play players and pay to win paradigms.
The free to play players feel slighted when they can't compete.
If they were merely playing for the enjoyment of playing the game, this would be less of a concern.
If you do pay, either in time or money to stay competitive that is even more you had to give for this fickle opportunity.
Then you have 'homework'. Often you need to research to get better at a game. You have to understand it the best you can or are comfortable with to compete.
This is often the foundation for your skill. The more knowledge you have the greater it becomes and the more you can build upon it.

Work, Cost, Sacrifice, Frustration <<<< These are alot of things that often detract from the enjoyment of an experience. Isn't really lighthearted pleasure.
However, its like drugs. You're always chasing the high and you'll constantly take these risks to possibly experience a 'greater fun'.


When playing competitively suffering a loss can also be very frustrating and you may dwell on it. A series of losses can cause you to retire from the game for awhile out of disappointment and rage. You may just lose the will to play.
When playing more just to enjoy the game you may lose but you reflect more on the things in the match that entertained you and the cool units and spells you enjoyed using and even compliment your opponent on things of his that pleased you.

Ofcourse people who play Competitive play to have fun. Its a game. they wouldn't of sought out to play a game and did so to be sad or bored or angry (althought you may not believe the last one).
They played a game to be entertained and to enjoy themselves. However, do they play just to enjoy the game, or do they play to compete? To wager 'fun' they could be having for a bigger pay off once their pride is satiated?

A person that goes to the movies to see movies they can discuss with people.
Did they go to the movies to see a movie? Yes! Thats why you go to the movies.

However this type of person only watches "popular" movies.
Why? Because they have the highest probability of finding people who have seen them and will want to discuss them.
They find discussing movies with people the most enjoyable part of a movie thats been watched.

They may enjoy elements and find some things more interesting and enjoyable than others. However, despite if they find a movie interesting they will not watch it unless it receives high ratings and its popularity is ensured.
If there is a movie that isn't really to their tastes, yet the movie is wildly popular they will attend the movies to see it anyway to fulfill the enjoyment of discussing it with others.


Do they go to the movies to watch a movie? Yes
Do they hope to enjoy the movie? Yes
Is the possibility of enjoying the movie the primary motivation for watching a movie? No
If the movie wasn't to their tastes yet they got to discuss the movie with others, did they get enjoyment despite not enjoying the movie? Yes

Are these people motivated by their tastes and what they think they may enjoy and find interesting?
Are they more motivated by enjoying the discussion about movies they've seen?

 

This is pretty much exactly what I've been trying to convince you of this whole time...

 

Rofl...

I've been trying to tell you this the whole time. Here is the simplest possible way I can put it:
You think winning and fun are separate. I don't. I think "people who play competitive play to have fun." That is literally the sentence I highlighted from your post. Competition is PART of their fun, no matter what analogies you make to movies or hypothetical conversations you list.

You keep saying I'm missing something you've said or trolling or something but I'm not. Stop trying to explain your definitions of fun and winning. I UNDERSTAND them, I just DISAGREE. This is what is called a difference of opinion, and it happens because people don't all play the game the same way. All of the things I wrote above are arguing that fun v competition is an artificial distinction because competition is a way of having fun--a way that applies to many people. It boils down to the sentence that I highlighted that you wrote: "people who play competitive play to have fun."

 

"Winning" and "Fun" are two separate ideas, but they overlap like most concepts in gaming. For example: How often do you read about players not enjoying (a.k.a. having "fun") the process of beating "lesser" players over and over due to the ranking system? They're literally maxing out their wins, yet they're not having fun. In this regard, winning != fun.

I believe the most accurate way of framing this argument is that those who play to win are often doing so because they find the idea of beating a challenging opponent to be fun. It's not that winning, alone, is enjoyable to them, rather they wish to throw down against other opponents of equal or greater skill. In many cases, losing to a challenging opponent can be just as fun as winning. That's not to say that some players don't enjoy winning to the exclusion of all else, but this usually points to a lack of personal confidence if they're actively avoiding challenging opponents in the process (see queue dodging).


Getting back to the OP, I believe that something risks becoming overpowered if the effort required to equalize it far outweighs the effort required to put it into effect. Challenging runes that necessitate responding with skillful play are great, though.

 

You are merely stating that Fun is present regardless if you are playing competitively or not.
Im not , nor have i ever disagreed with that.

I am stating that Fun is compromised and is a variable.
Not that it exists for some and not others.
You are saying that Fun is static and the act of seeking fun denies their is any variance or disparity in fun between player groups.

You clearly have constantly misread/misinterpreted my posts.
You continue to misquote me and argue against a claim i never made.

At this point you are just irritating.

 

Which one am I?

 

The 5th type. Troll

 

@Sokolov stop avoiding hard questions, its getting silly.

 

The chances were already low anyway.

PS: Ill just take another few years break. Buff elves, bye.

 

All I have to say:

 

That video really needs to stop making its way to these forums. . .

 

I think I'm a combination of socializer and killer. I like that.

 

very nice combination indeed. Did you make the WP? I used to be in that guild years ago.

 

I founded the spiritual successor (like how System Shock has System Shock 2) which peaked at the end of the Summer of 2014 where we maintained the #1 spot for a couple of months. We've since disbanded, but I can't bear to get rid of my signature. @mw24

 

overpowered is an overused term. granted. and no one is going to be able to define it for you to the point where you can work it into your algorithm. but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist or that it doesn't negatively impact the strategic aspect of the game. its like porn. you know it when you see it. quit being a porn merchant.