Discussion: Visions of Amareth Final Preview

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Senshu, Nov 13, 2015.

Page 5 of 8
  1. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I don't see how this makes them better or worse. It's a fairly subjective thing. Doesn't seem relevant to this discussion.
     
    Sokolov, Nov 15, 2015
    #81
  2. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Why is it overcosted?
     
    Sokolov, Nov 15, 2015
    #82
  3. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    it doesnt help much with the problem directly but it gives them more upside to negate the downside that they naturally face. I think it would be better to just go through the 2x2 champs and fix their stats and abilities as needed though instead of buffing them all.

    @absorb I am just assuming its overcosted because nearly every champ with the ability is pretty mediocre and generally expensive. It may be the ability or it may be that the the majority of the runes with this ability are poorly put together stat and ability wise.
     
    mw24, Nov 15, 2015
    #83
  4. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Not 2x2.

    But more generally, your approach basically is all champs should be cheap, low cost and have access to good abilities. This is not my philosophy. I believe champs and abilities should be appropriately costed.
     
    Sokolov, Nov 15, 2015
    #84
  5. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    talking about the cyclops theme, its really bad.
     
    mw24, Nov 15, 2015
    #85
  6. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I like how you just think things but have no idea why you think them. It doesn't inspire confidence in your opinion.
     
    Sokolov, Nov 15, 2015
    #86
  7. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Can you examine the Warwizard in more detail and put together an APPROPRIATELY costed version? You can adjust the cost of abilities, change the build, etc.

    What I want you to start thinking about when you make suggestions is more than "this is bad, make it better" but actually start to actively understand the costing structure of units and abilities.

    For example, the Warwizard has access to a number of good support abilities and we shouldn't just go around randomly giving free stats because of some perceived "badness." If we removed Dissipate it'd go up +8 nora and be a much worse champ because its role is really not ranged damage.

    We should actually look at the champ in detail to see what the problem is. If abilities are overcosted, identify those and why they are overcosted compared to comparable effects/abilities.

    I am not just going to add stats to random champs because someone says they are bad with no explanation. That is a terrible way to balance.

    If you are serious about wanting to help the game improve in the ways you think it is lacking, please start doing this.
     
    Sokolov, Nov 15, 2015
    #87
    Woffleet, Tweek516, Gnomes and 1 other person like this.
  8. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    i havent looked at the absorb ability recently but what i do know is that whenever I build ud bgs for ranked matches I almost never run absorb champs. Something is wrong with the champs with the ability or the ability itself, they are too weak. same thing with dodge/block champs, they are lacking atm as well. Might be the abilities might be the builds of the champs.

    I don't know every exact detail about everything in the game 24/7. I have to research stuff sometimes before I speak to find out the exact answer so I don't give misinformation.
     
    mw24, Nov 15, 2015
    #88
  9. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    The cost of 0 DEF didn't change with the recosting actually.
     
    Sokolov, Nov 15, 2015
    #89
  10. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Could it be you are mis-evaluating the ability's value since you don't seem to know much about it?

    How can you know its value if you never use it?
     
    Sokolov, Nov 15, 2015
    #90
  11. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    i dont have the exact formula change but i did notice many 0 def units increase by 5 nora such as elven archer, arrowsinger, ice dragon, nefari dragon, dead fairy, and many many more.
     
    mw24, Nov 15, 2015
    #91
  12. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    you misunderstood. I dont know its exact cost and don't have the list of champs with the ability in my head atm. I know the ability well, that's why I don't use it in my bgs. it seems to be a rare exception for a champ with absorb to be effective.
     
    mw24, Nov 15, 2015
    #92
  13. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Ice Dragon? 52 HP is "low hp?" Also, it went up 3 nora when the formula changed.
     
    Sokolov, Nov 15, 2015
    #93
  14. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    So what about it is bad? And what do you prefer over Absorb? For example, do you think Dodge 1 is better? Is Dodge 2 better? Evasive 1? +6 HP?

    Give me SOMETHING other than "I think it is overcosted because I think it is overcosted."
     
    Sokolov, Nov 15, 2015
    #94
    Gnomes likes this.
  15. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    it just needs a cost reduction. I would reduce its cost by 3 nora.

    dodge 2 and block 2 probably need a cost reduction as well, I'd try 3 nora and see if it makes the abilities worth taking. currently block 1 and dodge 1 are always better, quillback might be the only exception because it has deflect. I would also reduce the cost of block and dodge 1 by 1-2 nora. rank 2 should cost 2-3 nora more than rank 1.
     
    mw24, Nov 15, 2015
    #95
  16. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Why? What makes -3 nora appropriate?
     
    Sokolov, Nov 15, 2015
    #96
  17. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    itd make the ability less of a sandbag and the champions with it slightly less costly. 5 nora instead of 8 would be more appropriately costed for the benefit the ability provides. at 8 nora the champs would be better off without the ability.

    there are many other abilities that still cost too much as well, it seems the revamp made most(or at least many) abilities cost way too much nora.
     
    mw24, Nov 15, 2015
    #97
  18. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Why? What makes -2 appropriate on Dodge and Block 2?

    You think that Dodge 1 being 6 Nora at CD and Dodge 2 being at 8 nora (down from 10) is good? You think -1 CD on Dodge is worth only 2 nora? If so, why?
     
    Sokolov, Nov 15, 2015
    #98
  19. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    You are just repeating yourself. Of course reducing the cost means it reduces the cost. That isn't a reason for why it should be costed at that price. I could say that I think every ability is overcosted by that reason, even if it's already 1 nora.

    What makes 5 an appropriate cost for Absorb?

    Let's say Absorb is a new ability that you and I were creating together. What would we cost it at and why?

    For example, you seem to think Dodge 1 is fine at 6 nora. Do you think Absorb is better, worse, or about the same as Dodge 1? If you think it is 5, then you'd suggest that Dodge 1 is better than Absorb. Is this true? If so, why?
     
    Sokolov, Nov 15, 2015
    #99
  20. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    I think block should probably be cheaper than dodge, reflexes cheaper than evasive, counter attack melee cheaper than counter attack range, etc.

    I think block should be 4 nora and block 2 6 nora.
    I think dodge should be 5 nora and dodge 2 7 nora.

    these may or may not be the perfect costings for these abilities, I havent put enough thought and time into it to figure this out but these costs would be much better than what we have currently.
     
    mw24, Nov 15, 2015
    #100
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