Here I will propose some champion changes, and I will rate them by complexity marked by the following labels (you can search for them): [*] = Fail safe change, this change is simple and does not change the way the rune plays, it only fixes a specific problem [**] = Normal change, this change is a bit more elaborate but still keeps the fundamentals of the rune [***] = Big change, the rune will be other after the change is made, only the flavor and major traits are kept. [***] Almsgiver: To passive champion DMG to 0 From 10 SPD to 6 from 5 RNG to 1 from 2-4 DEF 0 (=) HP 45 (=) Base abilities: Amphibious, Invigorate 2, Ritual of Healing, Boost: weak Path 1: Empathy, Heal mass 3 Path 2: Amplify healing, Command: heal [**] Angel of nourishment DMG to 8 from 9 SPD 6 RNG to 3-4 from 2-4 DEF to 0 from 1 HP 50 Base abilities: Attack: Magical, Flight, Intensify, Equalize Path 1: Cleanse, Healing breath 1, Healing breath 2 Path 2: Aerial Supremacy, stab, charm 1 [*] Boghopper bull Base abilities: Attack: physical, Amphibious, Massive leap Path 1: charge 1, 2, 3 Path 2: Unstoppable, sweep, battlemaster 2 Notes: he can jump in then charge, cheap builds at <70 nora [*] Boghopper Elite DEF to 0 from 2 Riposte replaces Multiattack base Notes: cost reduced and he works better as a champion locker with assault and block + riposte [*] Boghopper Glutton Lethargic replaces weighty base [**] Boghopper Mentor DMG to 5 from 9 RNG to 4-5 from 2-4 Def to 0 from 1 Base abilities: attack magical, surge: beast, amphibious Path 1: Boost: beast, commander: beast, invigorate Path 2: marsh lesson, Grant flight, domain: water [*] Boghopper thunderfist Base abilities: Attack: electricity, amphibious, Nohkan Do Path 1: Punish, Sunder, Paralityc strike Path 2: empowered offense, pummel 1, hostile [*] Boghopper toad SPD to 6 from 7 Poison cone from base to path 2 Poison eater replaces immunity poison OR SPD to 5 from 7 Poison eater replaces immunity poison [**] Circadian Chronologist ****edit: added heal champion 3 base**** RNG to 3-4 from 4-6 Base abilities: attack: magical, semi aquatic, font ignorance, ripples, heal champion 3 Path 1: Paralyze, stall, soothing serenade Path 2: invigorate 2, hydrate, noble sacrifice [*] Circadian enchantress SPD to 5 RNG to 6-7 trail water replaces splash defenseless added to base Invigorate 1 removed from path 2 (to avoid a super cheap build) [**] Collective Ambassador RNG to 5-6 DMG to 5 from 7 HP to 40 from 45 Base abilities: Attack physical, Loyalty Path 1: Amphibious, Semi aquatic Path 2: surge races rank 1, surge races rank 2, surge enemy Notes: Loyalty discourages splits that may abuse surge races rank 2. surge races rank 1 looks like too low a boost. [***] Corrupted Overlord Base abilities: Attack: fire, Amphibious, colossal Path 1: Tidal wave, Lava Storm, Annhilate Path 2: Leech vitality, Distichous FS/UD, regeneration 3 [***] Darkmarsh Concealer Base abilities: Attack: physical, amphibious, Still life Path 1: Shadowspawn, Nightfall Path 2: Mark, surge shadows Notes: champion is good, but this would eliminate the conceal interactions that are cumbersome and have little to no support. [*] Darkmarsh defiler Base abilities: Attack: poison, amphibious, poison eater Path 1: Defiling aura, inhibiting touch, surge poisoned Path 2: Poison charge, amplify poison, contaminate [*] Darkmarsh outlaw Recosting of brand of the outlaw, compare to crushing blow, it should cost 5-6 nora Base abilities: attack physical, amphibious, multiattack 1, brand of the outlaw Path 1: leap 3, phantom dash, elusive leap Path 2: surge boghopper, flanking, duel [*] Darkmarsh snatcher Base abilities: attack physical, amphibious, provision offense, still life Path 1: sword breaker, snatch, pilfer Path 2: flanking, assasinate [*] Finlord's neophyte SPD to 6 from 7 [*] Fire Salaman Base abilities: Attack fire, amphibious Path 1: Fire bomb 1,2,3 Path 2: Immunity fire, fire eater, flame charge [*] Firk diplomat Base abilities: Attack psychic, amphibious, majestic 1 Path 1: Multiattack 1, 2, midwipe aura Path 2: Loyalty, marsh awakening, annex [*] Firk mimic Path 1 to pummel 1, power attack 2, power attack 3 [*] Firk psy sentry Base abilities: attack psychic, amphibious, detection 3, sentinel Path 1: hidden water, hidden vegetation, escape [*] Firk savant magic blast from base to path 1 [*] Firk sensorate Vindictive from base to path 2 [**] Jellebrium mediator path 1: invigorate 1, invigorate 2, puppet master [*] Marsh warden SPD to 6 from 7 [*] Mindwarp frog Path 1 to dodge 1, dodge 2, elusive [*] Muck dragon SPD to 6 from 5 [*] Pirahnid Tempest Base abilities: attack electricity, berserker 2, semi aquatic, life siphon Path1: damage shield electricity 3, evasive 2, reflection 4 Path 2: hostile, lightning blast, electricity aura 3 [*] Salaman commando Reclaim relic swapped with trickster Notes: I know commando it's meta worthy but trickster is auto upgrade and basically nullifies that upgrade path, I would rather have a sandbag ability than to lose flexibility on a legendary [***] Salaman daredevil Base abilities: Attack electricity, amphibious, lightning skewer, running start Path 1: Initiative 1, initiative 2, reinforcement 2 Path 2: Quest Runner, short lived 2, jolt [***] Salaman Dervish Base abilities: Attack physical, amphibious, manic, counter attack melee, opportunistic assault Path 1: careless, berserker 1, 2 Path 2: font ignorance, faithless, impatient [***] Sixul the worldender RNG to 1 fom 1-2 DMG to 10 from 12 SPD to 6 from 7 Base abilities: Attack fire, amphibious, fire volatility Path 1: Flame surge, set ablaze, terraform lava Path 2: Fire acolyte, flame siphon 1, defiant [*] Sludge wurm replace amphibious with semi aquatic Path 2 to poison eater, fry, sweep [*] Swamp Doombringer Path 1 to [poison cone 3, tidal wave, psychic blast] [*] Swamp thing Remove marsh awakening [***] Swamp wurm SPD to 5 from 6 Base abilities: attack physical, chain lightning, semi aquatic Path 1 spark charge, jolt 1, jolt 2 Path 2 regen 2, regen 3, spontaneous regeneration. [*] Swamp wisp Replace grant poison cloud with poison charge [***] Swampguard crusher Base abilities: Attack physical, semi aquatic, clamp, damage aura 3, rend 3 Path 1: tough 2, calcify, readiness Path 2: defender, crushing charge, quest, kill enemy [**] Voodoo Shamfie DMG to 10 from 12 HP to 40 from 60 Base abilities: attack physical, amphibious, soul siphon Path 1: Detection 1, detection 2, Soul mason Path 2: Power attack 2, pummel, consume. Tortuns later...
I like the majority of them. However, I feel like some of the runes on the list (like thinderfist) don't really need to be changed. Also, they removed surge 2 (for the collective ambassador suggestion).
By my math this would make the champion, 24 nora (base stats) + 1 for amphibious + 3 for ritual of healing + 7 for boost: weak + 12 for invigorate 2 So 47 before upgrades. UP 1 adds 5 nora or 10 nora. UP 2 adds 4 nora or 15 nora. I think I would pretty much always take Heal Mass 3 and Command Heal, because the champion does not have a huge amount of things to do with AP, so the AP saving of Empathy vs. Heal Mass 3 are not super relevant. I also would never take amplify healing over command: heal, as it would probably end up helping factions with even stronger healing more than it helps FS. I think 61 nora for Command: Heal + Heal Mass 3 build is pretty solid, and I could see running it in a fair number of FS builds. I also like it in general outside of amplify healing. I am not sure how the base stats changes will impact its overall cost, so I can't really assess it based on that. Strig Warlock has dmg 9 and 42 hps for 48 nora, so this wuld probably be +6 nora (-2 for dmg decrease +8 for addiional hps), so 54 nora base. Base abilities would add 25 so 79. I think angel still have a -5 modifier, so 74. UP 1 would add 5 to 14. UP 2 would add 2 to 6. So final cost would be 81 to 94. Though with equalize, you are frequently going to be paying -20%, so 65 to 73. I could live with that, though 3-4 range is the worst. Base, with physical attack and amphibious is 58. I assume that the base massive leap is massive leap 2, so +5 nora for 63. Builds are going to range from 68 nora to 76 nora. I like this. I think I would probably always run charge 3, but path 2 seems like you are going to have some real interesting choices. I can't think of many situations where I would prefer riposte over multiattack. It feels like you are trading a more generally useful build for one that is narrow and pretty bad. I don't support this change at all. Yes! Seems fundamentally pointless. This champion does not need a change. Seems fundamentally pointless. This champion does not need a change. Mind explaining this one? I don't mind these changes, but this one also seems like reshuffling things that don't really need to be reshuffled. Seems reasonable. Right now she just can't compete with the cheaper circadian options. Yeah, surge 2 no longer exists. 49 for base stats 14 for base abilities. UP 1 adds 10 or 14 UP 2 adds 7, 8, or 12 nora. I think I would probably run him with tidal wave and regeneration for a total of 80 nora, though some of the other builds look potentially tasty too. This is my favorite change from the set. @Sokolov, please? I actually dislike him losing Poison. I like defiling aura as an option, but mostly this champ doesn't really seem like one that is worth reworking, except maybe to get some path diversity. Maybe change Path 1 to Poison 1, Defiling Aura, and Contaminate? Yes! This guy has seemed so mediocre for so long, I just never paid enough attention to brand of the outlaw as the source of the mediocrity. I also like the trimming down of the mobility options, and this rework in general. Thumbs up! Costing with the suggested changes would be to 68 for base stats and upgrades, with a range of 5 to 9 for UP 1 and 4 to 8 for UP 2. For a total cost range of 77 to 85. I Would probably run the 77 or 78 (leap 3 or phantom dash + duel) nora build in meta or the 78 or 79 nora build (phantom dash or leap 3 + surge: boghopper) in boghoppers. Dive is pretty sucky on this one, so I like this rework. I don't think I would ever end up taking assassinate though, without a consistent source of stealth. (Still life does not count). Flanking is good though, and all of UP 1 would provide some good options. I think I would run the 65 point build (swordbreaker + flanking), but the pilfer combo is pretty sexy with provision: offense. Probably a bit too opponent reliant to really be worth it though. 68 nora for the basic build seems like a good deal to me. I have another build of this that I like, but I absolutely agree this one needs a change. 60 nora base. UP 1 adds 8 to 12 UP 2 adds 5 to 10. So builds range from 73 to 82. I like this change. Right now he has a little bit too much overlap between it and the jellebrum mindbender, and this allows you to run both of them without as much overlap. I would change Path 2 to Loyalty, Stall, and Annex though, as I like stall on him and marsh awakening is only going to be useful in the most corner builds. I also think that majestic 2 base wouldn't be so bad. If you are going to change UP 1, I would go ahead and make it so you have three different abilities. Seems fair, though not needed. Good change! I like it. Would suddenly make it playable again. I would run it either at 73 with magic nova 3 and teleport, I think, though the 74 nora magic blast and warrior foe build also looks fun. Sure. Though I think it loses as much as it gains in the process. I actually don't really like this change. The utility it got from distract on UP 1 was pretty sweet. Though if were able to go a step farther and turn it into mostly a utility champion (no damage and changing UP 1 as indicated) I could get on board with that. Yeah, he would be much more competitive at 75 base nora. I would also support changing Ally: K'Thir on UP 1 with Lay Trap: Poison Cloud, turning him into a base 69 nora rune with a poison build (lay trap: poison cloud and immunity: poison; 67 points), a boghopper rune (logistics: flanking and evasive or detection; 66 or 65 nora), or a meta rune (flanking and detection or evasive; 69 or 68 nora). No more poison cone? This seems like it would make it a bit too expensive. He is a bit too expensive to compete with other options now, so a driving down the cost is good. Not sure this would be enough to push him over the edge from not played to played, but this does not look like it would end up as something that could be picked more reasonably. I don't agree that trickster is an auto upgrade at all. I see people run air drop all the time, and it might not be my favorite choice but I think it is a reasonable one. Knockout is dumb though, and should be changed. I like the synergy of quest: runner and initiative 2, though I am not sure he is needing a rework enough to make it a priority, I think this would be a good one. Also another one that I don't feel really needs a rework, but I do like the idea of a lock down manic unit in salaman. Interesting rework. I like one I put together better, but I see a lot of potential of interest here. I think I would probably end up with the set ablaze + flame siphon build. Why? You are basically taking away the main upgrade that people run on path 1 for a bunch of things that will push up its cost. It is satisfying to see him with buffed stats thanks to all the enemies in water, but I am down with knocking him down to 71 nora base, yeah. Why? The ability to create endless poison clouds is half the reason to run it. I don't like the inclusion of semi-aquatic at all as it makes it much less useful outside of water generating battlegroups. Otherwise I like the overall idea of a lock down unit, that does some good secondary damage while still being tough to take down. It looks like the best upgrade set would be tough 2 with defender in boghoppers (71 nora) or tough 2 and crushing charge in meta (74 nora). I left out the ones I don't have strong feelings about.
@Tweek516 thanks for the feedback and yeah, some changes don't have to do with the powerlevel of the runes, it's a matter of design, I explain thunderfist just below so you see what I mean. @doubtofbuddha thanks for the feedback, some changes don't mean that the champion will be good, it's more a thing of roles, I will go step for step: Boghopper elite, he will drop in cost a good amount (around 10) and will be as good on 1vs1 font battles, for current price I would (and do) run something like salaman elite instead Boghopper thunderfist: First of all, I don't like empowered abilities, but, leaving that aside, I think my proposed build is richer, allowing you to build a pummel + sunder build, or a hostile + parastrike or the rushy empowered + punish and NKD to triumph on the 1vs1. Only thing I seeing being lost is access to stun Boghopper toad: he's too expensive and needlessly fast, (same with marsh warden and neophyte), you don't need him clocking at 8 speed, he would do better tanking and using poison charge, and lower cost and healing with poison eater will help him do that. Circadian chronologist: It's a build that seeks to lower costs and eliminate the remnants of his original build to take advantage of ripples, looks like I forgot to write heal champion 3 on base. One path is control and the other is support and they should work pretty well with ripples Collective ambassador: surge 2 on races is the only way I can see that ability working, you can reasonably run boghopper, firk, tortun, mirefolk, salaman and maybe angel and mutant, but you need to deploy and keep alive 7 champions to do that. You don't normally have that much champions on board, and you will surely have 2 or 3 boghoppers out at least and so. I don't think that would be broke. Darkmarsh defiler: the important thing in that build is poison charge + poison eater, just like toad Firk psy sentry: not needed, but hidden vegetation irks me Marsh warden: I would be happy with my proposal and yours aswell Mindwarp frog: poison cone is anti synergetic with the whole build of low damage control champion, dodge and ellusive will increase the chances that he can make something you want wandering Doombringer: Yeah, I know, but it has no synergy at all with the faction Swamp wisp: Poison clouds need poison charge to really damage things, and it would lower the cost a bit Swampguard crusher: He would be a good candidate for semi aquatic or +1 speed upgrade path, but water is easy to come by in boghoppers and in meta, it shouldn't be a problem and keeps the cost down
Re: Swampguard Crusher. Semi-aquatic doesn't keep its cost down. It costs 2 points. Re: Doombringer. It doesn't need to have direct synergy, IMO. It can just be a good rune, just like most of the other Doombringers. I mean I would probably still run it with poison cloud, but I am quite fond of it as it is now. Re: Boghopper Toad. Sure, he probably is needlessly fast, but your upgrades are also pushing it harder into poison battlegroups. At most I would push him down to speed 6. His kit is otherwise fine. re: Collective Ambassador. Back when I was running collective battlegroups (before I decided The Collective was bad without Preordained) I was able to consistently and easily get her up to +14 or +15 damage. There are a surprisingly large number of double race champions, for example.
A good amount of these changes don't make sense. Thunderfist is fine. Chronologist is fine. Giving it Soothing Serenade with Ripples would be insane. Mindwarp Frog- let's not give it elusive. Doombringer is fine. Your proposed change would probably make it see no play at all. It's a cheap source of magic damage + adaptive. Swamp Thing is fine. Would be too cheap without Marsh Awakening. Swampguard Crusher is fine. Salaman Dervish is fine. Salaman Commando is fine. Circadian Enchantress needs a slight change, but i'm against giving it Trail Water. Sok is going to nerf the access to water gen and change Semi aquatic. I might have missed a few changes I don't like, but for the most part these changes are pointless and a waste of time. Instead of changing already played runes, you could nerf OP runes (not just in FS) and devote more time to more important stuff (map balance).
About swampguard crusher, I think that 5 speed champions, specially if they are large, are problematic, right now he's 5 speed but he has crushing charge that makes him faster, once changed, he would have access to crushing charge as a upgrade and if he was 5 speed, not taking that option would hinder your early game, for that reason I added semi-aquatic, because that would bump his speed to 6 and I mean that it would keep his cost down compared to increasing his speed stat directly. About boghopper toad, I think that the two principal things that kept him out of my meta were his elevated cost and choking stench, I guess that a meta splashable build would have that ability on a upgrade path. on doombringer and surge races I will take your word.
I just don't like the idea of swampguard crusher going from something that can be used in a pretty wide range of bgs to something that is specifically for a subset of a subset. I like boghopper toad at speed 6. What do you dislike about choking stench?
Swampguard Crusher is really fine, no need to change, he is a tank, he survives and protect the frontline, that's all.
Choking stench makes maneuvering around toad difficult for non immune champions , so I don't see it outside poison decks or maybe on boghoppers where everyone leaps, not that I have something against the ability
Ok moderator @IMAGIRL @kalasle @Senshu , whoever moved my post, it was uncalled for. It is important for people to know that Gabriel is making these suggestions based on guests - he said so himself - so people are aware of that prior to agreeing or disagreeing with him. Me and Cydna arguing was uncalled for, yes. But the post in which Gabriel says he is making suggestions by guessing SHOULD NOT have been removed, what kind of bs forums are these that you cant say things with honesty, as long as it isnt offensive? Mine wasnt. This kind of behavior just pushes me further away from Pox, and as far as I know you guys cant really afford loosing players, specially long time paying ones like myself.
In the “we will never get something like this" category Firk infiltrator DMG 10 SPD 6 RNG 1-2 DEF 0 HP 51 48 nora body Attack: psychic (2) Amphibious (1) Shred defense (4) Relocate ally (8) 63 base Path 1 Swap 1 (2) Swap 2 (3) Swap 3 (4) Path 2 Still life (4) Stealth (8) Trickster (10)
