Dude, if we are talking about modifying a rune that is fine balance wise, because it attracts hate, well, I think we're opening a can of worms based around the notion to let the whiners get their way through the forums, rather than through play testing and improving their skills. Is the same freaking deal with BotU: the ability most of the time is fine, but one or two scenarios that happen to improve its efficiency made people cry harder than usual. So BotU is broken because the poison theme, lets nerf it. Now here comes the construct with the same immunities, and nobody blinks and everything is fine. Just no, I vehemently oppose to changing UT because people dislike it. If there is a good idea on how to change it, heck, made it a new rune, and slap some mechanic so UT and this theoretic new rune can't be run on the same bg. I do think there are legitimate cases where the annoyance factor should be taken into account when dealing with a rune (domination is dumb and should changed because, most of the time, is more about plain luck on finding a map with chasms, than real skill on their employment), but on the UT case, where are defined and strong counters (backlash and stuff), there are valid tactics to deal with it (yeah, right, I would totally deploy it on the FW "small round island" map, no questions [/sarcasm]) and there are stronger runes with basically the same concept (scorched dwarf, nora mine), then I see no real reason at all to nerf it. Sometimes you just have to turn deaf ears to the whiners.
I've taken Unholy Tomb off of the suggestions list for now as I do agree with Shimaru that this rune does get an unfair amount of hate when it comes to 1v1 play.
This is my post from the community patch notes thread. Main focus is the rider and phylactery abilities. Main rune rework is General Korsien. Spells nerf suggestions for Domination, Mobilization & Essence Drain. Rework idea for Creeps. Forsaken Wastes (My changes focus on making certain abilities less sandbagged, one or two units more efficient for their purpose and making a racial less negative outside of it's theme but still having a theme link. [Reasoning is included]) Phylactery Bound - Cost changed from 30 to 10 - Description changed to "When this unit is deployed from the runedock, a Phylactery relic is spawned adjacent to it. If a Phylactery is in play when this unit dies, the nearest Phylactery relic is destroyed and this unit is reanimated in its place and the owner of this rune generates 20 less nora at the start of next turn." (edited) - This lets the initial cost be reduced and putting the cost in when the unit dies. The tempo hit only occurs if the unit is actually reanimated. Dark Rider - Name changed to Dismount: General Korsien - Cost changed from 50 to 15 - Description changed to [AP:2 CD:1]"This unit is removed from play and General Korsien is spawned in the location this unit occupied with 3AP. This ability costs 15 nora." (edit: AP cost to 2 and the unit spawns with 3AP) - The cost is significantly reduced on deploy with the cost moved to the actual dismount action. The cost is further reduced as the death of the unit no longer triggers the dismount, allowing the ability to be countered. It also means you will likely give up some of the units remaining health when you dismount, making it less of a "tank" ability. I feel this loss is not that great as the use of Easy Target to counter the current cost prevented them from being tanky regardless. General Korsien - Name changed to Mounted General to differentiate from his dismounted form - Removed Easy Target - Added Resistance - Physical 1 - Added Groundstriker - Cost changed from 85 to 66 (81 if he dismounts, 4 nora less than now) - Made him more unique. His purpose as a mounted unit is to charge down ground targets for heavy damage. He is able to deal 19 damage when charging a ground target, but only 6 damage to a flying target. He is tanky versus Physical and Magical, but weak to alternative damage types. Skeletal Rider - Name changed to Dismount: Decayed Mercenary - Cost changed from 45 to 15 - Description changed to [AP:2 CD:1]"This unit is removed from play and a Decayed Mercenary is spawned in the location this unit occupied with 3AP. This ability costs 15 nora." (edit: AP cost to 2 and the unit spawns with 3AP) - Same reasons as Dark Rider. Skeletal Raider - Removed Easy Target - Cost changed from 74 to 54 Seeker of Blood - Ranged changed to 1 from 2-3 - Cost changed from 78 to 71 - He has relocate bloodball, blood magic and blood knowledge. He is meant to be close and bloodballs are often adjacent to enemies. This reduces his cost and allows him to attack after relocating. Creep - Cost changed from 4 to 2 - Description changed to "This unit is a Creep and classes as 2 champions for any Bulwark or Surge abilities." - This change makes Creep less of a negative impact outside of it's theme and sets it up for future changes based on it being a "creep". Also, the splitting between Mutant and Anthropod races will let them be a benefit to surging in those BGs. Creep Master - Description changed to "This unit's basic attack can target any unit within the range of any Creep within 6 spaces of it." - An example of an altered "racial" in a sort of hive-mind, allowing the masters to use other creeps for their basic attacks. It also makes the Mindthief Creeper and Phantasmal Creeper useful as "attack platforms" for the masters while not having a basic attack of their own. Forsaken Wastes (Nerf Edition) (These changes focus solely on nerfs over buffs or lateral changes. Brace yourselves! ) Skeletal Lerper - Surge: Skeleton 2 removed from upgrades - Surge 2... Zombie Behemoth - Lethargic removed from base - Cost changed from 48 to 56 - Cost increase based on what is essentially an anti-sandbag. Domination - Cost changed from 50 to 25 - Description changed to "Target non-Possessed enemy champion has its AP set to 3 and is Possessed by you and gains Immobile and Bloodless until the end of turn." - Lets possess people... to control them. Essence Drain - Description changed to "Target champion takes magical damage equal to half of its current hp. This damage ignores defense." - The damage can be reduced by spell resistance, weaken spells, the IS bonus, Tough, Magic Resist/Eater/Immunity. Can also deal extra damage to those vulnerable to magic. Mobilization - Cost changed from 55 to 50 - Description changed to "Target champion and other friendly champions that share a non-undead race with that champion gain 3AP and Ready for 2 turns." - Makes it work better in theme BGs and transfers a quarter of the AP generation to Ready. (This was Pace in the original post, but Ready seems more appropriate. Another option might be Accrue for 3 turns for those who don't attack.)
I have mentioned this in another thread, but I will do so again here. I think the way to fix Domination is actually changing how chasms work. Make them deal a BIG amount of damage to anything falling in them, rather than insta-killing. 20/25/30 or whatever big amount of dmg would be appropriate (it's probably better than dealing dmg as a percentage of a unit's life, like 50%). Also, make it bad to hang around in chasms or hard to get out of them. This deals with Posession issues, as well as Knockback, Grounding insta-killing Flyers parked over chasms etc. . It allows Chasm Walker, Domain: Chasm and chasm creation to be a more natural/used part of the game and allows for some better map redesigns. Everybody wins? (And I do mean everybody, even those using Posession for chasm diving still get their big fall damage for their efforts.)
I think at 25 nora it would be an option for certain BGs and would be useful in a variety of situations based on enemy champion damage and abilities. The main purpose is to actually do something to it to stop it being a cliff drop. It's been like this for years because people keep wringing their hands over it rather than just sucking it up and changing it. @Sirius The downside is that would require fundamental gameplay changes. The advantage of the change suggested is it just applies abilities and effects that already exist and prevents the dive problem. It can be implemented quickly and makes the rune a cheap utility effect rather than a luck-based insta-kill.
Sometimes, fundamental gameplay changes are in order. We shouldn't just tiptoe around big design problems forever. Besides, it makes for a healthier game imo, by resolving multiple issues at once.
if by neutered you mean, cant compete with the broken crap in the meta right now... so? the goal is to bring the game down to a reasonable level, not make sure each theme has 1 or 2 broken runes in it so that everything is fair.
What about cutting the fat out of soul collector (i.e all his upgrades) and giving him soul trapper + death charged 1?
Wow that's a really interesting creep take... although when I read it I took it to meant the "creeps" counted as all race types and as 2 for the sake of surges etc... Creep- This unit counts as all race types. For the purpose of Surge and Bulwark abilities this unit counts as 2 champs. Here are some of my notes on the main creep ability: Creep/Creep master - Consolidate them into one ability. Have it increase the deployment zone by 1 every time an enemy champion dies within 3 spaces of this unit. Decrease the deployment zone by 1 to a minimum of 3 every time you deploy a champion at a font. This essentially helps alleviate the need for basic attacks and for draw wins due to the zone growth on deploy. The 2nd stage would be adding back synergistic abilities that play off the deployment zone like Shrine defender etc...
I agree with removing surge 2 in general. It just makes dmg way too crazy. I'd rather see something like vengeful instead of surge 2 or why not soul feast?
I still feel not having any surge at all on lerper would really hurt skeletons, especially with all the chat of nerfing/countering summons already flying around elsewhere. Sounds like they'll end up both losing Surge 2 and have a harder time amassing summons, which would be a harsh double whammy. I already drop vendetta on lerpers and don't run Soultap in skeletons, so those choices leave me nonplussed. But I guess if every other theme gets its powerhouse stuff nerfed, then nothing is nerfed. Though I generally dislike balancing mostly through nerfs. Edit: I feel like I see everyone running zombies or FW meta, so I feel like I'm totally missing something when I see all the talk of nerfing skellys.
Lots of stuff to digest. Where to start... First, I'll warn not go be too forthcoming in willingness to neuter certain things in order to placate the Nerf Gods. Domination; This should be the definitive possession mechanic. As I mentioned in another thread about how disease could be fixed with 'stronger' disease 'levels,' domination could be fixed as well. Add a clause that applies major damage to the user's shrine or units if the dominated(not possessed) unit dies under the effect. Like a sort of psychic backlash. Let it bypass iron will as it's now the definitive level of the 'possession hierarchy' And speaking of iron will, Prestige needs a farming range already, like regal presence. Mobi shouldn't be allowed to be a general purpose crutch anymore. And Essence Drain, really? Spending upwards and sometimes more than half a units cost shouldn't be able to halve its hp? UT is fine, but if something flavorful can be agreed on, cool. Given the Death Harvest neuter, it shouldn't be yet another source of it. I need more time to be more thorough on my ideas, out of town on a tablet is tiring and slow.
Well it's a shame the Nerfs get more attention thanks the rider stuff because those were the main things I'm concerned about. Garr, the lerper would still have surge1. I picked domi, Ed and mobi because: 1. Domi allows cliff dives. Stopping this quickly seems more important than making the rune perfect right off. It's been a cheese rune for years, let's just make sure it can't be used that way any more ASAP. 2. ED is a problem for the more expensive runes. I mean, most of the time this spell is basically a spot-death rune. I don't see an issue with at least further limiting it's use a little rather than it being usable on any 75+ Nora rune in the game. 3. Mobi for the reasons you said ^^ @yobanchi That's an interesting idea on surging. Question on the deployment stuff though, do you feel manipulating the deployment zone can be made into a healthy mechanic without swinging between being op and useless as it has now? My current thoughts were that current creep was too unwieldy in and out of theme. Annd yeah, emphasising rider changes again because the front loaded costs right now and the addition of easy target on these units makes the first form an over costed weakling for the sake of the second form, which is not meant to be how it feels. It's meant to feel like a unit with two real, usable forms.
It think the main issue with Creep is the "on deploy" aspect of it. That alone makes it difficult to balance since it basically counts like an early game speed increase. For instance when it was 2 on deploy it caused them to be too strong since it gave them an early advantage in being able to put pressure on the enemy font. Right now it's too backloaded to the point where it starts to eat itself and becomes useless. I think if it was more centerd on the death of enemy champs only with no decrease it would allow for at least an end game. The real power should be them having abilities that are related to the shrine or deployment zone related so that focus becomes less sniping enemy fonts and more "my champions are awesome in deployment zones". For instance I was very sad to learn that putrid lost shrine defender.
Stitched First needs Transfer Life 2, Relocate Relic, or Psychic Ping 2 on base to be worth its current nora cost. Stiched Merged should lose Exertion 1/2/3 in favor of something else...I really don't like Exertion and Tough on the same champion...seems counter productive to have a Loss of Life price on a champion so expensive with Tough, considering Tough does not reduce Loss of Life. Not sure what to replace that upgrade path with yet.
I still think that if summons also get nerfed, then that's going to be two blows to a theme that is already on the backfoot until its surgers get big. If this is so broken, why does it seem like everyone is playing Zombies as a theme and not Skeletons? Serious question. Edit: Just to not be solely critical: I completely agree that Dominate needs to change because cliff killing is luck based nonsense.
